Topic: Linux port?

Seriously people if you adopt linux, accept the consequences and stop crying please !

I think porting to Linux at this time isn’t worth the trouble.

Yes, Linux has it’s good ideas and CAN be a good OS. But to put it bluntly, it’s just not worth supporting as a dev. It takes a lot of time and money to not only port, but also to maintain the code base. Add to that the fact that Linux is NOT growing in the OS community, at least not enough to show it’s going anywhere yet.

The reasons for this are many, and include a HUGE lack of commercial backing, incompatibility issues, lack of software options, lack of user friendliness, etc.

I know that many people will disagree with my above statements, but the fact is(and this has been discussed and confirmed within the Linux community) that it’s not ready for mainstream. Sure, a certain crowd can and do gladly run Linux without problems. But for the general user, it just isn’t friendly enough. Linux, as a community, is a mess. And the backing they need isn’t there.

So I don’t blame a dev for not wanting to port their software over and risk losing sales from other more widely used platforms. I would expect an OSX port LONG before a Linux port.

I like Linux, and mess around with various distros here and there. But I’m just being truthful here. It isn’t at a place where it’s attractive to a commercial dev. Also, keep in mind that many Linux people are used to getting things for free. It’s part of their ethos somewhat. And they are loyal to the devs that give them things for free like Ardour. I doubt very heavily that the overal Linux community are even interested in commercial offerings, outside of a small percentage(like those in this thread).

Brent

What do you mean not ready for me? I do use Linux sometimes. I have multiple distros and I am a fan of Linux.

I’m just being realistic. And the things I’m saying aren’t just me being a detractor, it’s also based on things in the Linux community itself:

http://lunduke.com/?p=429

The simple truth is that for a typical computer user, Linux poses many problems. And if you have an OS that is working for you(which Windows and OSX do actually work), why switch to a higher maintenance OS? Sure, you can install Linux for your clients, and they might like it. If you have a distro that has the basics on it that the user might want, like email, office program, etc., then sure they will be happy for a while.

But if they want to maintain the OS, add things to it, etc. there just often isn’t an easy way.

Also, like I said, commercial software isn’t as popular with the Linux crowd because of the whole ethos of everyone giving back to the community.

It’s not about convincing me that Linux is a good OS. I think it is in many ways. But is it worth switching from Windows for? Or OSX? For the majority of people, no. Heck, I’m using Vista and I’m completely happy with it. Snow Leopard and Windows 7 are out soon, and people are excited about them.

Anyways, all I’m saying is that I think the market for Podium on Linux will be sparse at best, and a big waste of time for Fritz, taking away from improving things for the vast majority of users who use Windows or OSX exclusively. If Linux were to pick up market share(which it really hasn’t over the past couple of years), then maybe. Just not yet.

Brent

@kyran wrote:

The thing is that this sort of reasoning is a selffullfilling prophecy: there are not much software tools available, because no one uses Linux for audio. And no one uses Linux for audio because the tools aren’t available.

Indeed. But that’s just part of the problem. Businesses aren’t going to invest in something “just to be the first” very often. Sure, it could get the ball rolling if a couple jumped in, but there is too much risk. It’s not easy competing against two of the largest companies in the tech industry. But that’s what Linux has to face, as unfortunate as that may seem.

It’s the same with hardware support. No manufacturer supports linux and makes drivers for it. In this case the community filled in the gap. I have yet to find a modern desktop system that is not supported out of the box, but still. (actually this makes the user experience better, because you just plug it in and it works, no messing about with getting the latest drivers from ten different sites)

But to be fair, both Windows and OSX have working plug and play right out of the box for most items. And people are familiar with it. And if the drivers AREN’T there, it’s extremely easy to get them and install them. No messing around. Not the case with Linux. If it isn’t there, you have to FIGURE OUT how to get it there. Why would people jump from working and supported and familiar operating systems to an OS that will potentially cause more headaches than it’s worth?

I could go on, but I won’t. You probably all think I’m a zealous fanboy anyway by now. I just feel that Linux is technically ready, what it misses is positive marketing and an increased user base to get other devs to notice and support it.

I disagree. I don’t think Linux is ready for mainstream. For an OS to be mainstream, it’s got to be almost idiot-proof. The typical consumer just isn’t likely going to be able to take on Linux without pulling their hair out. It may not seem that difficult to you or your clients, but it’s not as user friendly as the other OS options. It just isn’t. I don’t think you are being a fanboy either. You like Linux and there is nothing wrong with that(I like it too, remember!).

I know that Linux has potential. And I know it faces an uphill battle. And that isn’t likely to change. But businesses really have to think long and hard about whether it’s really worth the minimal gains that will be had by porting to Linux. Sure, SOME people will buy commercial apps. But many won’t. Why do so when something like Ardour is available? Why port to and support an OS with a very minimal market share and likely very little returns?

Again, uphill battle. It sucks. And I wouldn’t mind seeing more apps on Linux myself. But to be honest, even if somebody does see a great program like Podium ported to Linux, chances are that the vast majority of other software they run won’t be Linux-ready.

Maybe some day. It’s just not time yet for various reasons. I know it might seem like I’m just anti-Linux or trying to put it down. I’m not. I’m just being realistic, and as I mentioned already, I’m not the only one thinking this way. Much of the Linux community also agrees.

Now, to go check out the latest version of Sabayon while I’m thinking about it!

Brent

The best reason is added security: there’s no need for a virusscanner bogging down the performance of your computer. The security model is imo also better than the one on windows.

I personally like the workflow better than windows or osx (which really didn’t connect with me), but that’s personal.

Also: yes it’s cool to get stuff like office suites for free, but as you remarked, those programs are also available for windows and osx most of the time. A lot of people say they want to switch, but don’t just because they can’t run ms office or any other windows program. (which is why wine exist, it runs quite a lot of windows programs)

Basically just try the live disk of your distribution of choice (I’d go for any ubuntu or kubuntu for office type work, and 64studio for audio) and see if you like it. If it doesn’t offer anything for you, then there is no reason to change.

Sorry for the excessive posting, but I kind of narrowed down the problem.

Podium works perfect in wine when you use directsound. (it has some glitches when compositing is on, but those go away when you use crossover office, or switch off compositing). Unfortunately you have serious latency problems with directsound (just like you’d expect)

The problem lies with the wineasio driver. Podium seems to be able to access it (I can play vsti instruments with low latency), but can’t start the transport. I really think this is just a small issue, but I don’t have the experience to figure out what goes wrong in the code. The wineasio driver works perfectly with reaper and ext2.

Maybe if Fritz could spare half an hour looking at this and then put a big “wine compatible” logo on his frontpage. I’ll happily make convenience scripts to install and configure linux boxes and update the wiki etc.

@kyran wrote:

Podium works perfect in wine when you use directsound. (it has some glitches when compositing is on, but those go away when you use crossover office, or switch off compositing). Unfortunately you have serious latency problems with directsound (just like you’d expect)

What is compositing?

The problem lies with the wineasio driver. Podium seems to be able to access it (I can play vsti instruments with low latency), but can’t start the transport. I really think this is just a small issue, but I don’t have the experience to figure out what goes wrong in the code. The wineasio driver works perfectly with reaper and ext2.

Can you preview audio files in the Podium browser panel?
If so, can you open the sound file, enter the sound editor, and use the transport toolbar to play the sound file?

Maybe if Fritz could spare half an hour looking at this and then put a big “wine compatible” logo on his frontpage. I’ll happily make convenience scripts to install and configure linux boxes and update the wiki etc.

It would be nice to claim Wine compatibility, but I do not have access to a Linux machine, so it’s going to take considerably more than half an hour.

@kyran wrote:

The best reason is added security: there’s no need for a virusscanner bogging down the performance of your computer. The security model is imo also better than the one on windows.

FWIW, I have been running Windows Vista for a year and a half on this machine, and I NEVER have the virus program running. I only perform a test every couple of weeks, sometimes not even that. I have yet to have a single virus on this machine, and I’m on the net all day long.

I think most threats can be avoided with smart browsing. People say that Linux is more secure, but I really don’t know. People don’t target Linux. However, if Linux were to become a major player in the OS game, you can bet that it’s only a matter of time. People target success. It’s not really accurate to think that because it’s secure now, that it will stay that way, because of that very aspect.

I personally like the workflow better than windows or osx (which really didn’t connect with me), but that’s personal.

It is indeed personal. Some things are good for me, while others are annoying. And for work that goes beyond using pre-loaded software and basic uses, the workflow quickly breaks down. Just installing new software is a confusing mess for somebody who is new to Linux.

Also: yes it’s cool to get stuff like office suites for free, but as you remarked, those programs are also available for windows and osx most of the time. A lot of people say they want to switch, but don’t just because they can’t run ms office or any other windows program. (which is why wine exist, it runs quite a lot of windows programs)

The problem is that any emulation will typically not be as stable or as efficient as the real thing. Also, not everything runs on Wine, and those that do run on Wine, often present various issues.

I strongly believe that Wine is not the answer. For the public to take on an OS in general, they don’t want to learn how to use an emulation layer and all that comes with it. They want software that runs out of the box on it.

Basically just try the live disk of your distribution of choice (I’d go for any ubuntu or kubuntu for office type work, and 64studio for audio) and see if you like it. If it doesn’t offer anything for you, then there is no reason to change.

Just so you remember, I have multiple live disks and distros. I’m not against Linux, and I keep up with it as well as using it at times for basic things. Sabayon rocks!

But then again, the general public won’t know what to do with all the hundreds of distros out there. Send a typical computer user to distrowatch.com and they won’t know what to do or how to find what works for them. There just isn’t enough standardization and consistency in the Linux world for it to become a mainstream OS yet.

I do hope you get Podium working fully in Wine though. Even if the public doesn’t take it on, it’s always nice to have options for those who do wish to venture into the Linux world.

Brent