Topic: Midi Playback with no Midi data???

Viewing 10 posts - 1 through 10 (of 10 total)
  • June 24, 2008 at 08:40 #1641
    Conquistador
    Participant

    Strange one this.

    I had a Trilogy track feeding into three or four FX tracks in Compact mode. I then went to Expanded mode to get access to the FX tracks meters at track level (not accessible in Compact mode AFAICT), I decided to unhide some of the FX tracks and when I returned to Compact mode my midi data had gone but Podium still played it back.???!??

    I checked and double checked the arrangement but found no midi data for that track but I could still hear it. I then placed the midi data again on that track (imported from a previous save) and Podium ignored some of the notes. It looks like switching from Compact to Expanded and back to Compact mode totally messed the track’s routing up.

    For now I will leave Expanded Mode alone but need the additional metering that mode offers once tracks are not hidden.

    Any idea what happened here Frits?

    Thanks.

    Edit: Quick reference to my comment eariler “then went to Expanded mode to get access to the FX tracks meters at track level (not accessible in Compact mode AFAICT)”

    Actually you can easily get access to hidden FX tracks meters in Compact mode (in the mixer) by right clicking the headers and selecting Hide Mixer Strip it appears to hide and unhide tracks in Compact mode.

    At track level Hide track lane works the same way.

    The mystery and problem / possible issues with track routing remains though. 🙁

    June 24, 2008 at 13:10 #12742
    Zynewave
    Keymaster

    You must have hidden the track lane containing the invisible playing MIDI.

    Changing between compact/expanded mode in the arrangement properties does nothing to the track routing. It’s only if you start hiding/showing track lanes or mixer strips that it can appear to be visually messed up. Hiding/showing tracks will not change the signal routing though.

    June 24, 2008 at 14:34 #12744
    Conquistador
    Participant

    @Zynewave wrote:

    You must have hidden the track lane containing the invisible playing MIDI.

    I wish you were right (I checked that many times before starting this thread) but I have gone back to that project again and deleted every other track…just a few left and it is still playing back the mdi data that is not there. Hard to beleive? I agree…but I can send over the project and you can see for yourself. Simply hit play and watch what happens after bar 3.

    If that is not a track routing issue then I have no idea what else it could be but it is certainly not a hidden track lane or user error.

    Changing between compact/expanded mode in the arrangement properties does nothing to the track routing. It’s only if you start hiding/showing track lanes or mixer strips that it can appear to be visually messed up. Hiding/showing tracks will not change the signal routing though.

    I defintely need to spend more time working with hiding and unhiding tracks as part of my workflow in Compact mode as there is more there than meets the eye. When a user uses the commands to hide tracks in a group or a track lane there are subtle changes in the look of a track but routing issues or not…

    …something is wrong somewhere that started when I went from using an instrument with an FX chain of up to 3 – 5 FX tracks and unhid them in Expanded mode came back and my midi data was gone but still playing.

    I wish I could film this track playing back with no data but Camtasia is not set up on V64 here nor Vegas which I also have. In any case I can send over the project.

    OK…have a look at this screen shot…can you see the meters registering data playback with no data (Audio or Midi)?

    I specifically took the screen grab when the meters were up to eliminate any doubts about a hidden lane or track still being there in this arrangement. Never seen anything like it but I here it is…

    I was certain that if I stripped the project back to only this set of FX chains and a few tracks that the oddity would go away (perhaps some odd routing issue or user error) but no…it still plays. It’s like Podium has stored the data in the track somehow or even though the midi data has long gone it is still there but not visible?!?!?

    June 24, 2008 at 15:06 #12745
    Zynewave
    Keymaster

    Your screenshot shows the track named “zPEQ [Stereo]”. That is the bottom effect track. The lane for the Trilogy track (which contains the MIDI data) is hidden. Right click the Trilogy track and show the lane. You’ll probably also want to hide the track lane for the zPEQ track.

    June 24, 2008 at 16:32 #12747
    Conquistador
    Participant

    @Zynewave wrote:

    Your screenshot shows the track named “zPEQ [Stereo]”. That is the bottom effect track. The lane for the Trilogy track (which contains the MIDI data) is hidden. Right click the Trilogy track and show the lane. You’ll probably also want to hide the track lane for the zPEQ track.

    Frits that was it! 😀

    All this time using Podium but I only scratched the surface of Compact modes track chain panels.

    Incredibly they are some sort of cross between nested folders, group tracks and something else I have not seen anywhere yet. 😛

    I have to list the possibilities here (short primer of sorts) as it may help some new users…and clarify some things for me as well (he he)

    1. Track Panels are holders for Track FX and Instruments.

    2. A track Panel can display multiple types of data (Audio or MIDI) but only one data type is visible at any one time on a Track Chain panels track.

    3.The name that is visible on the track chain panel reflects the ‘active track’ within the panel. As one can see from the screenshot (this confused me initially) the active track within the panel was the ZPEQ track. So nothing was visible (no midi data).

    As Frits suggested, unhiding the Trilogy track then made that the ‘active track’ so the track panel header changed to show the name of the Trilogy mapping. At that point the midi data was shown.

    4. The flexibility of Track Panels includes changing any effect track into a bounce track (even if it is in a Track chain panel). So you could tap your bass signal from any one of the FX Tracks in the panel and bounce a version of it from there.

    Taking care to ensure you hide tracks you do not need (and unhide the track you want to see) will ensure you always see the audio or midi data on the track you want to work with within a Track chain panel. Highly flexible.

    Remixers should love it as having a Track panel set up just before the main out means you could churn out all sorts of mixes by bouncing a version of your track with different Mastering chains (from within a track panel) just make sure the track panel header shows the track effect you want to work with or bounce enabled track FX you want to work with.

    5. If all FX tracks are hidden (look for the tick mark next to the ‘Hide Track Lane’ command when right clicking FX tracks within a track chain panel) then the header for a Track Chain Panel will show the instrument mapping making it the active track. So whatever is on the instrument tracks (midi data for instance) will now be seen on the track chain panels track.

    If you combine the Inspectors advanced track management and track Panels layered flexibility you have an amazingly flexible and advanced environment for track management.

    LOL I tested 1.95 heavily but somehow most of this went over my head.:) I would dare say that the IGP (Inspector Group Panel) and the TP (Track Panels) are the two most powerful features in Podium.

    They are also unique to Podium AFAICT. A video on only these two features with some detail would really demostrate the most powerful aspects of Podium. The possibilites are almost crazy with IGP and TP. If only users could see this in more detail, visually in action.

    Please correct any of the above points if they are not correct Frits…and thanks for the solution! 🙂

    June 25, 2008 at 10:42 #12748
    acousmod
    Participant

    I have had some similar problems with simple copy/paste between arrangements.
    I really hope that Frits will finish to consolidate the compact mode because it can be actually extremely confusing !

    My example consists to copy 2 events on 2 tracks from an arrangement to another one (the two in compact mode).
    Copy/pasting has always been strangely convoluted in Podium, but it can now become a total mess.

    1. the 2 selected events, the topmost track selected :

    2. the 2 events pasted, the topmost track selected, the 2nd event goes on the level automation track, not too bad…

    3. second try, 1st arrangement, the second track is now selected before copying the events :

    4. the 2 events pasted (second track selected) : the first one doesn’t appear, but it plays :

    5. looking at the same arrangement in Expanded mode :

    6. unhiding a lane in the first track : it was here !

    How a such simple thing as copy/paste of events can result into a so complicated result ?
    I know that the answer is because in the 1st arrangement there is a plugin lane on the second track and not in the second arrangement, but it must not be a problem for the user…

    The old original Expanded mode, when not hidding lanes !, was at least clear and logical until you had understood the way it worked.
    The “new” compact mode seems to be as easy to use as what we find in other DAWS, but the two modes are not well harmonized : the compact mode looks like a workaround to the complexity and automation limits of the hierarchic engine, but actually results in some unlogical behaviours from the point of view of the user.
    Finishing the transition between the two modes (and hiding completely the old one ?) seems to me to be a high priority.

    June 28, 2008 at 13:03 #12749
    Conquistador
    Participant

    How a such simple thing as copy/paste of events can result into a so complicated result ?
    I know that the answer is because in the 1st arrangement there is a plugin lane on the second track and not in the second arrangement, but it must not be a problem for the user…

    That type of problem sounds familiar…

    I think a simple warning at the very least for a user should be added.

    a. Joe blogs tries to copy data from a track that has not been selected.

    b. A pop up is shown that warns the user that the data he is copying will not be copied to the clipboard as the source track must be selected first.

    An additional note could be added warning the user that once the source track is selected and the data copied then the destination track must also be selected or the data will not be copied there.

    So it might read thus…

    “Please select the source track for this data and after copying please also select the destination track first, before pasting your data there”.

    Back to your particular issue though…
    If I understood your problem correctly it would also be a good idea to at least add a similar warning to a user trying to do what you illustrated…maybe once they attempt to paste the data/tracks you copied to another arrangement with a different track structure…

    “Your destination tracks have a different structure to the tracks you want to paste so their appearance will be different”

    Just something to avoid confusion.

    I appreciate it’s not easy as a dev trying to cover every scenario but hopefully user suggestions and ideas make that process easier for Frits.

    June 28, 2008 at 16:20 #12750
    acousmod
    Participant

    You are right, BUT.
    My feeling is that if a car constructor has to show flashy warnings saying that “you have to press this button before turning the wheel to the right” or “don’t remove your left hand while you slow down”, there is a basic designing problem somewhere…
    People will ask themselves why they cannot simply turn the wheel and slow down like with other cars ?
    The constructor has to solve his mechanical problems and not show how it is complicated to construct a car, it is not the conductor’s problem.

    In Podium, some things are really nice and simple to do, but there are also a lot of strange and unlogical things to do that result in too much key presses and mouse clicks (!), and more regrettable, moments of total lack of understanding. At least, for me 🙁

    But nevertheless I will continue, and will wait the time that will be needed to see custom keyboard and mouse shortcuts, unified compact and expanded mode, a simple “normal” copy/paste behaviour, a “total recall” of the opened plugins and windows etc…

    June 28, 2008 at 17:32 #12754
    acousmod
    Participant

    One of the problems is that Podium doesn’t know the difference between an “audio track”, an “automation track” or a “MIDI track”.

    I appreciate a lot not to have to create specific tracks like in some other DAWs, but perhaps if Podium will associate an invisible “code” to each lane according of what kind of data it has on or what kind of mapping (it would be easy for automation parameters lanes), it will avoid such confusions when copying events between tracks ?

    For instance, if I put an audio file on a track, an audio “marker” is automatically associate to it. Then an audio event will have to “jump” to the next “audio maked lane” when pasted ? It would perhaps prevent it to be pasted into an “automation marked lane”.

    Of course, we will always be able to put what event we want on every lane by usual dragging.

    July 3, 2008 at 11:06 #12763
    Conquistador
    Participant

    @acousmod wrote:

    You are right, BUT.
    My feeling is that if a car constructor has to show flashy warnings saying that “you have to press this button before turning the wheel to the right” or “don’t remove your left hand while you slow down”, there is a basic designing problem somewhere…
    People will ask themselves why they cannot simply turn the wheel and slow down like with other cars ?

    Interesting analogy. I can see your point.

    The constructor has to solve his mechanical problems and not show how it is complicated to construct a car, it is not the conductor’s problem.

    Tricky still for Frits though. I certainly think he has done a great job so far. He will surely improve things further as he has done in the past. I guess we can only do our part by bringing these issues and suggestions up and let him take it from there. 8)

    a “total recall” of the opened plugins and windows etc…

    Something like one of these features…maybe? 🙂 😛

    One of the problems is that Podium doesn’t know the difference between an “audio track”, an “automation track” or a “MIDI track”.

    Which funnily enough allows for extreme flexibility and power when managing and using different track types. Strange in a way but it’s one of Podiums unique selling points.

    I appreciate a lot not to have to create specific tracks like in some other DAWs, but perhaps if Podium will associate an invisible “code” to each lane according of what kind of data it has on or what kind of mapping (it would be easy for automation parameters lanes), it will avoid such confusions when copying events between tracks ?

    For instance, if I put an audio file on a track, an audio “marker” is automatically associate to it. Then an audio event will have to “jump” to the next “audio maked lane” when pasted ? It would perhaps prevent it to be pasted into an “automation marked lane”.

    I have to say your idea in theory at least (only Frits will know how practical your suggestion is) really does sound very clever. On paper it seems very workable. But only Frits really knows as the developer (I guess) if it will work. 😐

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