Pigini.
ZynewaveI’ve purchased Microsoft Visual Studio 2008, as an upgrade to my Visual Studio version 6 compiler. I’ve been using VS6 since before the first version of Podium was released.
A long time ago I mentioned on this forum that I intended to upgrade my development environment at some point. Upgrading the compiler became a bigger issue for me when I recently got my Vista PC. I had to do all sorts of tricks to even install the VS6 compiler on Vista. VS6 also doesn’t support integration of some of the new Vista features into Podium.
VS6 dates back to 1998. I’ve stuck with it this long because “if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it”. It goes without saying that I eventually have to move on. Big technological advancements has been made to the Windows OS and CPUs during the last 10 years, so compiling Podium with VS2008 will create faster executing code that can take advantage of the new features offered by the latest processors and Windows OS versions.
Today I got the new compiler in the mail. I’m currently studying the documentation. Before I purchased the upgrade I had downloaded a trial version and made sure Podium could compile on VS2008. Now I’ve stumbled upon a page in the documentation that says that applications built with the new Visual Studio versions no longer supports the Windows 98/Me/NT platforms. 🙁
I know there are a few Podium users that are still on W98. So what do you think. Is it acceptable to sacrifice W98 compatibility with the release of Podium V2, in order to keep up with new OS and processor advancements?
druidOuch.
Personally, I think XP is at a stage (no matter what anyone says) that anyone not using it has either not bought a new computer for a looooooong time, or is merely stubbornly stuck to what they know, maybe like what you were before you upgraded.
I think moving on is necessary sooner or later. I’m mostly for XP minimum requirement (I’m never going back from it), but it does still seem a little unfair. What are some examples of the benefits of the newer compile? Rather than vague references, I mean specific examples?
Also, do you change anything about Podium’s source code and features? If not, couldn’t you occasionally compile older versions and make them available for those that need them? Or would this require two sets of source code maintenance and/or a lot of time wasted?
UncleAgeNot to seem insensitive to the folk on an older OS but…
It’s been 10 years. I for one am very cautious moving from OS-to-OS but you have to as some point. It’s just the nature of the beast.
Frits, maybe if it wasn’t too much trouble you could compile on both for a few releases and give some of the faithful time to change (if they want to).
TechnophobiaTime moves on and so do Operating Systems.
It was reluctant necessity that made me move on from 98 to 2000 and then XP. I noticed that as I wanted to upgrade my software, it no longer supported previous systems and so I had to move up an OS to keep using them . That’s the way the World is I’m afraid…
Do any of the current crop of DAW’s still offer support for the older systems ?
I guess that you may be able to phase out support, but that requires you are able to devote time to both sides of the fence for a while…ouch !
Hopefully, a 98/2000 user will chip in and say something…
@ Frits. I presume (from the info I found ), it’s something to do with the Windows Kernel that the builds no longer support anything lower than XP ?
rinxaiI think that yes it is acceptable, and probably a fortuitous move. Personally, I don’t see much benefit in supporting W98, especially if a lot of work is involved in maintaining support for ‘legacy’ OS as well as moving forward with current M$ compiler.
pavouk100@rinxai wrote:
I think that yes it is acceptable, and probably a fortuitous move. Personally, I don’t see much benefit in supporting W98, especially if a lot of work is involved in maintaining support for ‘legacy’ OS as well as moving forward with current M$ compiler.
+1 😆
PiginiI hoped it would not happen to podium 😕 .
Win98 compatibility was one big reason why I bought it in the first place.
I want to make clear, it has nothing to do with me being stubborn, peculiar or “not keeping up with progress” or such. Therefore that post might get a bit longish, just bear with me 😉 .
I’m neither stubborn nor technically handycapped, nor poor, but I’m a technical purist to whom sentences like “It’s 10 years old. Time to move on.” mean nothing, as long as a new OS doesn’t beat the older one with performance where it counts.
I have my good reasons for favouring win98 for audio work. In my big setup I’m working with several computers at the same time, each one mostly has its dedicated single task, just like an external instrument. They have creamware cards inside(which with sfp version 4.0 work best on win98), so I don’t even need vst-plugins that often.
One thing is absolutely essential, when working that way – low latency, midi timing and reliable syncing. All post win98se OSes absolutely suck, when it comes to that, I tested it. Not always is newer better. Did you know that every cheap old soundcard with midi support via gameport adapter has a lower latency than any new usb midi interface (except for unitor8)?
BTW win98 does score higher than an audio optimized winxp in overall benchmark tests on my systems
Such things depend greatly on the particular hardware and drivers and level of optimization.
The advantages of the newer OS’s are: better general stability out of the box, more RAM supported, multiprocessor support.
Which are not important to me, because:
My win 98 systems run rock solid, they are dedicated optimized configurations, used for nothing else but audio/midi.
If necessary, disk streaming makes up for lesser RAM.
I don’t need multiple processor cores, my hardware is more than sufficient for everything i throw at it. Computers are getting faster all the time, but buying a new one is not necessary, it would be pure consumers greed and fascination for the new gadget.
BTW, solving problems on clients computers is part of my work, I know the newer OS’s inside out. But I know too what I want and what I need and what not.
Keeping podium’s win98 compatibility would be great, if it is possible at all. I know win98 users are a minority, but with some audio working environments it makes good sense.
jpleongAre we talking about abandoning XP as well (since it’s an NT platform)?
That’s the only thing that really worries me.
Pigni, one huge advantage to moving up to the NT platforms is the NTFS file system which eliminates the 2GB filesize limit imposed by Fat32.
JP
ps- and for what it’s worth, Vista is not ready for critical production work.
PiginiPigni, one huge advantage to moving up to the NT platforms is the NTFS file system which eliminates the 2GB filesize limit imposed by Fat32.
Yes , I know. But does a single audio file exceed 2GB with what you’re doing? It never happened to me. And if needed, it is possible to add Ntfs support to win98. Just as it is possible to add a native generic usb2.0 driver, supporting all flashmedia, cameras, usb drives etc. All just a matter of knowing how.
For audio work on a single computer with a multicore cpu, I would use a dedicated winXP partition optimized for audio, with all unnecessary services deactivated and nothing but audio apps on it. But for my recent setup it’s no option.
darcyb62It’s time to move on.
druid@jpleong wrote:
Are we talking about abandoning XP as well (since it’s an NT platform)?
While I cannot be sure yet, I sincerely doubt it. I think it means specifically NT, since it is outdated and superceded by even Windows2000 (which isn’t mentioned; I assume Win2k is still supported then? I don’t mind, I don’t use it, but just curious).
PiginiBefore I purchased the upgrade I had downloaded a trial version and made sure Podium could compile on VS2008.
Frits:
Did you compile the 1.98 with it?? That would explain, why it did not work for me. (Tried it only yesterday, since I’m not quick with new versions 😉 ) Though some others, not using win98, found 1.98 not as reliable as previous versions. If you compiled it with the newer compiler, there might be some probs involved with it.
UncleAge@Pigini wrote:
Pigni, one huge advantage to moving up to the NT platforms is the NTFS file system which eliminates the 2GB filesize limit imposed by Fat32.
Yes , I know. But does a single audio file exceed 2GB with what you’re doing?
>2GB, no. But my comp is not a dedicated audio workstation. I use it to edit video as well. And I have many video files that exceed the 2GB limit. Don’t get me wrong Pigini, I still have a 98 box here so that I can play M.A.X. from time to time. I am one of those that did not need most of what the later OS’s offered. However, I am a big fan of multi-core processors and the ability to use much more ram.
Do keep in mind that Zynewave is small operation and the legacy support may not be an option in the future. Who knows, I may find myself in a similiar boat when devs drop “support” for XP. I wish you the best of luck in your pursuits Pigini.
Zynewave@druid wrote:
I think moving on is necessary sooner or later. I’m mostly for XP minimum requirement (I’m never going back from it), but it does still seem a little unfair. What are some examples of the benefits of the newer compile? Rather than vague references, I mean specific examples?
If by “newer compile” you mean the VS2008 tool, then see my comment below in this post. If you mean the compiled Podium application, then the benefits should be better performance. The UI appearance will not be affected.
Also, do you change anything about Podium’s source code and features? If not, couldn’t you occasionally compile older versions and make them available for those that need them? Or would this require two sets of source code maintenance and/or a lot of time wasted?
Something I didn’t mention in my first post, is that obviously the Visual Studio tool itself has gone through a lot of improvements since VS6. There are many workflow improvements, better debugging features, etc. The actual C++ programming language has also been extended over the years. If I’m going to take advantage of the new C++ language features, it will not be possible to keep compatibility with VS6. I don’t want to maintain two sets of source codes. That would be a nightmare.
Conquistador@jpleong wrote:
ps- and for what it’s worth, Vista is not ready for critical production work.
He Heee yes…it….is. YMMV of course 🙂 but I am having no problem with very critical production work here. You can’t speak for all mankind jpleong 😛
@Zynewave wrote:
I know there are a few Podium users that are still on W98. So what do you think. Is it acceptable to sacrifice W98 compatibility with the release of Podium V2, in order to keep up with new OS and processor advancements?
I think you will have to at some point drop support for W98/ Me compatibility Frits. The vast majority of users are on XP and some on Vista. One cannot expect W98 support to be sustainable whatever happens in future.
IMO there are many apps out there that have already moved on from W98. I suspect many other devs of various types of software that are running a business on their own, just simply cannot support two dev platforms, in this case W98/ME and XP/ Vista…IMO W98 support cannot be supported forever.
It has to end at some point. With more devs on Podium it might be feasible to carry on support for the forseeable future but as a single developer …
“it would be a nightmare”
That is pretty much what I thought.
I suggest a crossover period for customers like Pigini. If that is possible.
Podiums development cannot be held up for the minority of users as that does not make business sense for Zynewave at all.
Podium needs every bit of dev time it can get and in a strange way maintaining support for W98/ME especially if it impacts XP/Vista dev time would ultimately slow down Podiums release schedule. Less frequent releases means less publicity, less registrations and less income. That model is of course just not sustainable.
A tough call for Pigini and other W98 users but unless you can fit in sustainable dev time and support for W98/ME + XP / Vista there may be no ther way for Podiums dev but to move on from W98 support. At least I would suggest an extended period for W98 users but it cannot be forever.
Hardly any dev with tight timescales and no marketing budget would do that IMO.
Tricky but sometimes progress is very difficult but critical for the survival of a product. 😐
@UncleAge wrote:
Do keep in mind that Zynewave is small operation and the legacy support may not be an option in the future. Who knows, I may find myself in a similiar boat when devs drop “support” for XP. I wish you the best of luck in your pursuits Pigini.
Yes. This is a harsh reality. Zynewave is a really small operation. Frits started this thread so that shows his good will to all his customers…but no dev can be expected to support any platform forever.