Zynewave.
thcilnnahojThe ‘go to sequence’ commands do sound nice. Maybe I missed it, but are there keys that switch to the next or previous sequence on a track? It would be a little limiting if you could only switch between sequences at the same position on the timeline, and would have to switch to the arrangement view to advance or retreat on the timeline.
I guess most command will be available for any events? E.g., ‘shuffle’ for markers (plus any grouped events)?
@Zynewave wrote:
is the palette thingy idea still on the table?
Apart from your response in that other topic, I did not detect a lot of enthusiasm about my suggestion, so I’ll probably only start experimenting with it once I get a touch-screen PC.
I don’t have anything against a radial menu, but I wonder if it’s needed for touchscreens. Especially with multitouch, there’d be lots of new modifier actions available…
By the way, it has been rumored that HP and Microsoft aborting their touchscreen devices. Patent issues, perhaps, if it’s true… 😕
I doubt that Apple, or anyone, could patent a standard radial menu like it has been used in applications before – they’d have to add in something unique. I guess Frits would do the same. 😉
Conquistador@Zynewave wrote:
Is this all too much?
Phew getting dizzy! 😯 I applaud your efforts to take this one on 🙂 but…that is way too much to remember or think about for a simple way to come up with some variation in a Song.
It sounds like your trying to achieve this kind of simple functionality with “Blocks” the hard way with shortcuts and various commands in Podium IMO.
Really Frits all the shortcuts and commands are waaaay to much for what you are trying to achieve. Far too much compexity IMO. 🙁 The way “Blocks” are presented in the video shows just how easy it can and should be..to do this….
” you often construct the song by laying out repeated patterns, with fill patterns injected at various places.”
Some kind of Podium version of “Blocks” would be much easier and intuitive to use IMO.
By the way I thought that radial menu in another thread was incredible. Hope to see that again at some point.
LiquidProj3ct@Conquistador wrote:
Really Frits all the shortcuts and commands are waaaay to much for what you are trying to achieve. Far too much compexity IMO. 🙁 The way “Blocks” are presented in the video shows just how easy it can and should be..to do this….
” you often construct the song by laying out repeated patterns, with fill patterns injected at various places.”
Some kind of Podium version of “Blocks” would be much easier and intuitive to use IMO.
I agree with Conquistador (or Record&Reason) comments about blocks. I didn’t know that Record’s feature and I feel a little impressed. It seems very useful and easy to use. It’s an advanced concept of “patterns”.
ZynewaveBeta1 is available. Changelog so far:
• Added new shortcut keys for sliding and zooming:
– Shift+Alt+ArrowKeys to slide.
– Shift+Home/End to slide to the top/bottom.
– Alt+Home/End to slide to the start/end.
– Home to center the timeline on the current selection.
– End to center vertically on the current selection.
– Ctrl+Shift+Alt+ArrowKeys to zoom in/out.
– Ctrl+Shift+End to set vertical zoom to default.
– Ctrl+Home to set timeline zoom to full range.
– Ctrl+End to set timeline zoom to the current selection.
• The popup help for the navigator and all scroll/zoom sliders are extended with descriptions of the new slide and zoom key shortcuts.
• Changed the key shortcut for transposing notes in full octaves in the piano roll from Ctrl+Shift+Up/Down to Alt+Up/Down.
• Added “auto-audition” option button to the file browser toolbar.
• Added “include editor tool shortcuts in timeline context menus” option to preferences. The default is off.
• Modified the alignment of buttons in the scrollbar region, and changed “zoom segment” to “zoom selection”.
• Toned down the drop shadow effects in the editors.
This gives you a chance to try out the new shortcuts, and test whether they are intuitive to use. Let me know what your verdict is, and if you have suggestions for changes. If you think that the new key shortcuts for some reason interferes with your workflow, I won’t mind removing at least some of them again.
Edit: Oops. Please ignore the new Snap, Nudge and Shuffle commands in the edit menu. They are not functional. I put them in there for testing purposes. They will not be included in 2.31.
Zynewave@thcilnnahoj wrote:
The ‘go to sequence’ commands do sound nice. Maybe I missed it, but are there keys that switch to the next or previous sequence on a track? It would be a little limiting if you could only switch between sequences at the same position on the timeline, and would have to switch to the arrangement view to advance or retreat on the timeline.
I’ll keep that in mind. Perhaps Alt+PageUp/PageDown could be used for that.
I guess most command will be available for any events? E.g., ‘shuffle’ for markers (plus any grouped events)?
Yes.
Zynewave@Conquistador wrote:
@Zynewave wrote:
Is this all too much?
Phew getting dizzy! 😯 I applaud your efforts to take this one on 🙂 but…that is way too much to remember or think about for a simple way to come up with some variation in a Song.
Could you be specific about which of my suggestions are dizzying? The shortcuts I suggested, and that now are available in beta1, are general slide and zoom shortcuts that complement the existing mouse behaviour. They are not linked to pattern building as such. I find them useful when navigating through a sequence in the piano-roll for example.
It sounds like your trying to achieve this kind of simple functionality with “Blocks” the hard way with shortcuts and various commands in Podium IMO.
Really Frits all the shortcuts and commands are waaaay to much for what you are trying to achieve. Far too much compexity IMO. 🙁 The way “Blocks” are presented in the video shows just how easy it can and should be..to do this….
Section arranging is another story. The things I suggested in this topic, is more related to arranging the smaller components that would be part of a larger section. Did you read the thoughts I had about section/pattern editing in the topic below?
LiquidProj3ctFor me these are intuitive, but at the moment they cannot replace the mouse:
– Shift+Alt+ArrowKeys to slide.
– Shift+Home/End to slide to the top/bottom.
– Alt+Home/End to slide to the start/end.
– Ctrl+Shift+Alt+ArrowKeys to zoom in/out.
– End to center vertically on the current selection.
Could it be automatic each time you open a piano roll /drum roll editor please?
• Added “auto-audition” option button to the file browser toolbar.
Thanks 🙂
Zynewave@LiquidProj3ct wrote:
– End to center vertically on the current selection.
Could it be automatic each time you open a piano roll /drum roll editor please?
I’ve changed it so that it will center automatically when opening the editor, but not when changing the sequence while the editor remains open. Automatic centering would simply be too confusing, if you for example Alt+Click a ghost note to change sequence.
thcilnnahoj@Zynewave wrote:
– Ctrl+End to set timeline zoom to the current selection.
Maybe you could add a corresponding menu entry to the timeline area right-click menu, or wherever you think it’ll fit best?
• Changed the key shortcut for transposing notes in full octaves in the piano roll from Ctrl+Shift+Up/Down to Alt+Up/Down.
This one I’m not too happy about. I think it was very comfortable to do this with just one hand, plus the key combination was fitting for me (Ctrl: move notes; Ctrl+Shift: move notes in another way!). I understand that the key combination is also used for zoom modifiers, and it makes sense with the cursor changing and all, but I don’t like it much…
• Added “auto-audition” option button to the file browser toolbar.
That looks great! It seems that this is the one and only slider that has a fixed appearance, though.
Conquistador@Zynewave wrote:
Could you be specific about which of my suggestions are dizzying? The shortcuts I suggested, and that now are available in beta1, are general slide and zoom shortcuts that complement the existing mouse behaviour. They are not linked to pattern building as such. I find them useful when navigating through a sequence in the piano-roll for example.
If that is the only purpose for them then I really have no problem with them at all. 🙂 (I just have no use for them personally but that does not mean other users cannot make use of them or find them very useful).
But you made a specific reference here to Electronic Music…
“While working this out, I was considering electronica music genres, where you often construct the song by laying out repeated patterns, with fill patterns injected at various places. With these new key shortcuts, users that work in this genre can quickly lay out the foundation of the entire song using only the keyboard.”
That is what I found dizzying as the Blocks idea, Session view (Live) e.t.c is a much easier and intuitive way of working with repeated patterns by far. Easily the reason why Live is so popular. There are a huge number, surely the greatest concentration of electronic Music/ Dance/ House/ Minimal House/ IDM e.t.c producers use Live and with good reason. Keybaords shortcuts for that…? That is the long way around.
Section arranging is another story. The things I suggested in this topic, is more related to arranging the smaller components that would be part of a larger section.
Its funny you should say this because I don’t think “arranging smaller components that would be part of a larger section” should be a separate process or different from “laying out repeated patterns”. What you are suggesting sounds like keybopard shotcuts for working with repeated patterns and Markers for working with sections?
Did you read the thoughts I had about section/pattern editing in the topic below? http://www.zynewave.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2294
It seems like tumults FR is a bit different to the blocks idea or the core reason behind Live Session view.
Either way I have seen the suggestions you made there and the Marker idea I think could work as an additional way to work with smaller parts / events in Podium but the timeline could get very busy with different types of markers all over the place to manage. You could have 3 markers between Chorus and Break for instance so in a full song especially a 4 -6 minute+ electronic house or dance track the number of markers used could be massive. No need for that…why not try something like this…
ConquistadorPart 1
A new Track type – Cell / Pod Track
As the signal flow in Podium goes up, the idea with this new track is to create your ideas inside it or multiple Cell/ Pod tracks and then record those tracks to other tracks higher in the signal chain so there is a logical visual work flow. A simple two part process – Create and then bounce / arrange.
Recording
Audio or MIDI recording is possible. When recording to this track type you click on the track (or go to its properties) to select how long you want the track to record for… 1bar, 2 bars e.t.c Start recording and Podium will then create an event that matches the length you specified.
Playback
Each clip or event on this track type can be triggered by simply clicking on it or on a strip just above the clip (to differentiate it from other clips if need be perhaps the “Show Sequence Event Header” command can be modified for this). The clip will keep playing / looping / repeating until you click on it again. One should be able to set how to trigger it as well for instance the next 1/4, 1/2, bar e.t.c
Playback of the song will of course be in sync with the clip and vice versa.
ConquistadorPart 2
Mutilple clips on a single Cell / Pod track
If you want to record another clip to the same track Podium could simply start recording from the edge of the last event or where a user specifies (Cursor placement). A grid /cell/pod could be used to store these clips to keep them tidy on the same track… optionally at least.
Bouncing
Simply route the Cell / Pod track to another track to bounce (to a group track for instance). I guess one could even convert any track anywhere in the signal chain into a cell track and go from there. One can also bounce any created ideas from Pod tracks into other tracks to arrange them further up the tree. Should you wish to work this way it could eliminate the need to move clips into place to arrange.
Simply start the song then trigger your Cell track clips and record them all into tracks further up the tree to create your arrangement which brings me to…
Trigger Headers
If you want to bounce say an Intro (keys and drums) for instance then a “Group Cell track” with headers (over cell tracks) could be renamed to suit. Click on those headers to trigger the cells vertically within the cell tracks beneath it.
Summary
There is much more that can be added here but I want to keep this simple. The idea here consists of two parts. Cell track to create ideas…other track types to record / bounce those ideas to.
ConquistadorMarkers….
The idea/s you shared in tumults thread about markers IMO might best be used for this instead.
Zynewave@thcilnnahoj wrote:
@Zynewave wrote:
– Ctrl+End to set timeline zoom to the current selection.
Maybe you could add a corresponding menu entry to the timeline area right-click menu, or wherever you think it’ll fit best?
Done.
• Changed the key shortcut for transposing notes in full octaves in the piano roll from Ctrl+Shift+Up/Down to Alt+Up/Down.
This one I’m not too happy about. I think it was very comfortable to do this with just one hand, plus the key combination was fitting for me (Ctrl: move notes; Ctrl+Shift: move notes in another way!). I understand that the key combination is also used for zoom modifiers, and it makes sense with the cursor changing and all, but I don’t like it much…
I’m wondering: Are you left-handed? Normally I have my left hand on the left side of the keyboard, so to use this shortcut with one hand (Ctrl+Up/Down), I would need to move my left hand over to the right side Ctrl key.
Does it not bother you that the mouse cursor changes to the vertical zoom cursor, when you hold down Ctrl+Shift for transposing octaves?
Zynewave@Conquistador wrote:
@Zynewave wrote:
Could you be specific about which of my suggestions are dizzying? The shortcuts I suggested, and that now are available in beta1, are general slide and zoom shortcuts that complement the existing mouse behaviour. They are not linked to pattern building as such. I find them useful when navigating through a sequence in the piano-roll for example.
If that is the only purpose for them then I really have no problem with them at all. 🙂 (I just have no use for them personally but that does not mean other users cannot make use of them or find them very useful).
But you made a specific reference here to Electronic Music…
“While working this out, I was considering electronica music genres, where you often construct the song by laying out repeated patterns, with fill patterns injected at various places. With these new key shortcuts, users that work in this genre can quickly lay out the foundation of the entire song using only the keyboard.”
That is what I found dizzying as the Blocks idea, Session view (Live) e.t.c is a much easier and intuitive way of working with repeated patterns by far. Easily the reason why Live is so popular. There are a huge number, surely the greatest concentration of electronic Music/ Dance/ House/ Minimal House/ IDM e.t.c producers use Live and with good reason. Keybaords shortcuts for that…? That is the long way around.
I’m not trying to make keyboard shortcuts essential. As implied by the “shortcuts” in the name, they are just shortcuts for functions you would normally do with the mouse. There may be users that like using key shortcuts. There is no reason to fear that Podium will become keyboard centric. I’m not a big keyboard shortcut user myself. So if you ignore the fact that I’m trying to make key shortcuts available, are there anything in my suggestions about snap, nudge, shuffle, etc. that is confusing?
Did you read the thoughts I had about section/pattern editing in the topic below? http://www.zynewave.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2294
It seems like tumults FR is a bit different to the blocks idea or the core reason behind Live Session view.
Either way I have seen the suggestions you made there and the Marker idea I think could work as an additional way to work with smaller parts / events in Podium but the timeline could get very busy with different types of markers all over the place to manage. You could have 3 markers between Chorus and Break for instance so in a full song especially a 4 -6 minute+ electronic house or dance track the number of markers used could be massive. No need for that…why not try something like this…
I’m not sure what you mean with “different types of markers”. If you compare the blocks lane in the video, with the marker lane in Podium, they are similar in appearance, except in Podium the markers are indicated by flags, and not bars that extend to the next marker. That is purely a visual presentation that I could change easily. Besides that, then my suggestion in the other topic indicated that there should be a marker at the start of each section. So if you in the blocks example would drag out a block to repeat 4 times, in Podium you would have 4 separate markers. If that turns out to be a problem, I can add a “length” setting to the marker properties, which will make it behave like in the blocks video.
I have not seen evidence in the blocks video, whether it is possible to overlap blocks. An example: In one section of a song you may want to use repeated 2-bar patterns for drum loops, but in the same section you may want to have 4-bar longer evolving synth or bass patterns. The idea I described with marker linking would allow for that.