Conquistador.
SerendipityThis is something that I’ve been thinking about since starting up with Podium again and reading comments and/or complaints, both here and at KVR, on the high learning threshold and confusion about Podium’s “unique hierarchic mixing engine”.
I just now ran into an example of this idea when browsing the P5 wiki http://p5.sonarama.com/p5/index.php/P5_Signal_Flow.
Might this, or rather something adapted for Podium, be helpful to Podianers…um..Podium users? 😆
Simple ways of showing the basic (or not so basic) signal flows to help newbies and potential users to “get it”?
My own chain of thought when opening Podium for the first time was kind of 😯 and more 😯 and even more 😯 then 😕 ❓ ❓ ❓ before finally :frustrated: and 😡 😥 made me close the program and getting drunk. 😈
TechnophobiaHi Serendipity,
Yeah, I think you may be on to something which could help newcomers to at least get started a bit more easily.
I’ve only been a Podium user for a few months but at least I am fairly comfortable with what I need to open/move/list etc to get around the program. That comfort only came about with a lot of initial head scratching and asking questions of Frits and others in this forum 🙂
I’m not quite sure about how to show flow diagrams of Podium though…it’s a tough one. Maybe after a few beers 😆
Perhaps, it’s something that could be incorporated into the Wiki.
Jaegerteamwould be very good to have such a diagram for Podium
PodianerI consider the whole arrangement editor i.e. the mixer and the track view as a signal flow diagram… For Cubase or Sonar this makes sense, because the flow is different than it is presented by the application.
Just my 2 cents…
xis23I find that the current implementation is already the most elegant and perfect way of showing what is going on in podium…. The arrangement window with the tracks down the side IS the flow diagram! Perhaps less so when using sends maybe.
I’d suggest that you colour your tracks in a way that helps build a better image in your mind of what’s going on. For instance you might have a high pass filter to seperate your basses from subbass so you’d make the subbass really dark, then the basses slightly less dark, then you might have another high pass to seperate mids and then you’d have your mids a lighter colour etc. This really really helps and I am sure is something that everyone probably has completely different preferences on. Just make a template track and go from that. Similarly colouring sends the same as what they are effecting. Personally I pick set values for the brightness for organisational reasons, and otherwise pick whatever hues suit my mental image of the instrument in question.
Here is an example:
SerendipityI’m happy for you guys that you understand the implementation so perfectly. However, there are people out there who doesn’t, believe it or not. 🙄 Many less fortunate people (myself included to some extent) might need a push (or boot in the a**) to “get it” by some other means, be it a more educational explanation, a flow diagram, video tutorials, by having someone read the manual to them s-l-o-w-l-y and a-r-t-i-c-u-l-a-t-e-l-y, by forcing Scott Garrigus to write a Podium Power book with mostly pictures in it and only three condensed sentences per page thereby helping us to help ourselves…umm or whatever. 😆
By the way xis23, thanks for the picture! Unfortunately it’s too small for me to read! Do you have a larger version? Why not put your method as a tutorial in the wiki? 8)
Conquistador@Jaegerteam wrote:
would be very good to have such a diagram for Podium
Maybe less so for existing users but surely for new users I would have thought. A great candidate for a Wiki entry. The things that are simple for us may be baffling initially for new users.
Some sort of signal flow illustration can only help even though looking at Podiums arrange page and mixer do give a clear inidication as to the signal flow within Podium. I guess it’s making sure new users have the easiest ride possible. 😉
SerendipityMy thoughts exactly! As an extra incentive, for those trying out the demo, not to quit after the initial five minutes of confusion – because there are people who only give a host five minutes or so to get it going before moving on to the next one 🙄
Ok, five minutes might be a bit low but you know what I mean 🙂
Podianerbecause there are people who only give a host five minutes or so to get it going before moving on to the next one
😛 I needed 5 minutes to buy Podium!
xis23@Serendipity wrote:
I’m happy for you guys that you understand the implementation so perfectly. However, there are people out there who doesn’t, believe it or not. 🙄 Many less fortunate people (myself included to some extent) might need a push (or boot in the a**) to “get it” by some other means, be it a more educational explanation, a flow diagram, video tutorials, by having someone read the manual to them s-l-o-w-l-y and a-r-t-i-c-u-l-a-t-e-l-y, by forcing Scott Garrigus to write a Podium Power book with mostly pictures in it and only three condensed sentences per page thereby helping us to help ourselves…umm or whatever. 😆
By the way xis23, thanks for the picture! Unfortunately it’s too small for me to read! Do you have a larger version? Why not put your method as a tutorial in the wiki? 8)
Yeah it was kinda fiddly for me to understand it myself at first too, i totally see where you are coming from…. Gradually just got less and less instances of lost confusion until now I hardly ever get confused, but it was a little frustrating at first, especially in the demo because it was battling that and the timed audio cutout at the same time. I will probably upload my idea on the wiki eventually, although I’d like to generalise a bit since I’m sure everyone has different ways of understanding things through colour. I reckon a step-by-step illustrated guide on the wiki on how to setup say a reverb-chorus-synth chain and then building from there might be a good idea, I might even do it myself if I get the time.
Conquistador@Serendipity wrote:
Ok, five minutes might be a bit low but you know what I mean 🙂
If the amazing response to Reaper is anything to go by, then you are not far off. It appears ease of use, simplicity and an impressive feature set are drawing in the crowds for Reaper over at KVR.
Podium is defintely not complex but could be easier to get into. Reaper came from absolutely nowhere almost.
I downloaded the latest version of Reaper but have not tried it out yet. Amazingly it’s still free, although that will change once it reaches 1.0 in about 2 – 4 weeks, if not sooner.
I think Frits has still probably the best balance between the speed of development and the ability to maintain new and existing features properly, keeping Podium pretty much bug free.
The big new playground for developers seems to be how not what.
How to make their product work more efficiently, quicker, easier especially for new users and potential customers.
As good as the z plugs are (very), freebies are all over KVR, FX and synths. So what do people want now? What is drawing the crowds?
You said 5 minutes. You are not far off. That is why Tracktion took off like a rocket, way back, and why a superb host like Podium has not…yet anyway.
I tried and failed with Podium and gave up for months after trying to get any sound out of Podium some time ago. Most people would not bother trying again. That simple.
An older Podium thread on KVR had many determined efforts to get something out of the demo described in detail by KVR members but few got as far as we have. Sad really.
I read in Sound on Sound magazine today in their review of NI’s Kore that NI realised that the world does not need another synth but a way to creatively manage and use the synths and plugs they already have.
The are 12 or 13 products in Komplete 3, KORE ties everything together, at a price for sure but a great idea. How to simplify a product, not what to add to it. I think Frits is definitely on the right track and has certainly consistently noted and implemented user requests.
EXT2 is great example of the new wave of simplifying existing workflows and ideas. Jorgen (EXT’s developer) said one of the areas for improvement in EXT2 was ease of use. That seems to be the way host development is spinning at the moment.
Ableton’s Live has had built in tutorials for years, built right into the arrange page. You just cannot get lost. This has been a massive help to new users.
The wiki should really help things here.
He he…a bit long I know, I know… 😆
Serendipity@Conquistador wrote:
If the amazing response to Reaper is anything to go by, then you are not far off. It appears ease of use, simplicity and an impressive feature set are drawing in the crowds for Reaper over at KVR.
Not just over at KVR it seems. From everywhere..by word of mouth more or less.
The hard reality right now, for Podium as well as many of the other smaller hosts, is that Reaper is gaining momentum, and a userbase, like rapid fire. The developer is coding like crazy, giving the users what they want in a very accessable host, and if he doesn’t burn himself out in the process he’ll create a monster in no time. Just think what will happen when Reaper’s midi capabilities finally equals its audio capabilities. Reaper also has gained some extremely dedicated fans – celebrities and ordinary users alike, writing the documentation, wiki, video tutorials and what not in a frenzy! It sort of reminds me a bit of energyXT in that way. Just ten times faster! Talk about commitment! Even though Reaper won’t be free after 1.0 it seems the price will be quite modest so I’m betting the momentum won’t slow down much, albeit Justin’s pace might.
Unfortunately for Podium and for us I don’t see such a “movement” happening here anytime soon. We’re just too few and we don’t have users that truly “burn for the cause” in the same way! If we did I wouldn’t be writing this to begin with. I’m thinking that the long free introduction of Reaper must have helped it enormously to set things in motion.
Podium is, excuse the language, a bloody great program! However, will that be enough in the end?
PodianerI don’t like Reaper at all! I think the “hype” is caused by the fact that it is free. People want to say: “Hey I have a free host, and it is even better than the big ones”. Perhaps there is something true to what they say. It should make Steinberg or Apple think about some aspects of their products.
Podium has a bundle of qualities. Frits implemented these qualities (features) during the years, and thus they are very well thought. It is different and unique, that’s why it has a learning curve for people like me, who worked a lot with Cubase. But I hope that some users here will make some video tutorials. That will make it easier for new users.
In the end, it is all a matter of taste.. But I doubt that the hype for Reaper will last longer than a few more months.. Even Tracktion, a great program, but in the end, it is lacking some critical features. And it will never be ready, because Mackie has a really bad bond with its customer base.
Cubase: Great host, but when it comes to really working with it, I found myself often angry about its crashes, its silly freeze feature and its really bad routing capabilities! Not to mention the non-draggable inserts. ALL these features are in Podium! And Podium is not at the end of its potential! If there was way more advertise on Frits’ side, Podium would be the killer! I have “learned” to love it.. I really liked it in the beginnning, but didn’t understand it that well. Now I really love it! And there is no looking back to Cubase or the buggy Tracktion 2!
I had several projects in Cubase that were corrupted somehow! I lost them!! 2 days ago, I couldn’t open a project in Podium. Frits fixed this. I waited only 1 day!! THAT was support! THAT is why I love Podium! You never feel alone with your problems! Tell that Steinberg 🙂
Ok, Reaper, at the moment, has a similar good support, but I only wanted to state my opinion on Steinberg.. 8)
darcyb62I’m with Podianer on this. I’ve had Reaper on and off my system a couple of times and to be quite honest it’s not for me. It does seem to have some momemntuim going for it but the folks at kvr are kind of funny lot. As long as the developer is giving the users everything and anything they want they will blindly follow, but as soon as that stops, the attitudes on there change as well.
I come from the Tracktion side myself, and every once in a while I’ll start it up but I keep coming back to Podium. ONce you undertsand how it works it really is quite logical. And even as strong as it already there is room for more. (like fade in/outs and controller support 😉 😉 )
I frequent kvr quite a bit but I don’t find myself contributing much anymore. Not really worth the hassle.
acousmodI think the “hype” is caused by the fact that it is free.
But I doubt that the hype for Reaper will last longer than a few more months..
I would not risk such pronostics…
The comparison of softwares is always a difficult exercise, which don’t give any benefits if it doesn’t help to improve something.
If I have well understood, this discussion is about “why so much people supporting Reaper, and why so few supporting Podium” ?
Personnaly, I was, and I am already, very pleased to see Reaper, not because it is free, but because it has already all the audio editing tools and ergonomics that I need in Podium since soon two years… (but Podium has of course also some other things that make me use, and love, it !).
Even if everybody has a different approach with audio softwares, when you see after a short or a long time, it doesn’t matter, that you can work in an effective manner, you wish to support it.
Justin and Frits have certainly opposed developpment methods.
I think that Frits is a perfectionnist, who takes all the time that is needed for every feature he adds to be perfectly in place with the others and is fully tested before integrated.
The result is a regular but rather slow progressing, which will give a wonderfull tool for people who can wait and who can accept to do things sometimes with more pain, because they can be confident in the long term.
I must say that for me it is worth the effort !
Justin adds a lot of things simultaneously, even if it can be improved and can cause problems. He can of course do that because the software is in beta state.
The soft is not very buggy but not very stable, it has a rather bad look but the programmer seems to favour the tools rather than the appearance, and people too.
For me, it is very logical that people “prefer” Reaper (I think that they even don’t know Podium) because it corresponds to what we generally want : something that is at the same time powerfull and easy to use.
Podium cannot really compete in this domain, due to specificities that make it irreplaceable, and if they change, it will not be Podium anymore…
The workflow is one of these, so easy and logical (without the sends) when we have understood it, but so strange before !
I think that there is also a problem of the terms that are used (already discussed) and the manner to do things.
Podium remembers me about the DX7, 20 years ago (!) : it was indeed a simpler synthesis than the “analog” model that we were used to, but because it used “operators”, “index” or “rates” instead of “oscillators”, “modulation” and “times”, because it needed the push of a lot of buttons to make easy tasks, there was very few people that made sounds.
I’d suggest that you colour your tracks in a way that helps build a better image in your mind of what’s going on.
Concerning the readability of the flow, I am used to color the tracks depending on their function : audio track, plugin track, MIDI programs, volume, plugin automations, bounce…