duncanparsons.
ZynewaveI’m currently revising the mouse and key shortcut behaviour, as well as reconsidering the terminology of the phantom sequences, and would like to hear your opinions on this.
In Podium I use the word ‘phantom’ to describe a sequence or sound event that refers to an object that is placed multiple times on tracks. This is indicated by the small ‘+’ symbol shown next to the name of the sequence event.
I’m beginning to think I’m the only one that uses the word ‘phantom’ to describe this. I have not seen it used in other applications, and user posts concerning this tend to use the words ‘clone’ or ‘ghost’. Some candidates for names are: phantom, ghost, shadow, clone, reference, link.
I think using the word ‘clone’ to describe two or more events referring to the same sequence is misleading. I consider a clone to be identical only at creation, but not sharing changes subsequently made to any of the clones. That is why I think words like ‘phantom’ or ‘ghost’ are better suited. I’m using the verb ‘clone’ (as in the menu ‘Clone phantom sequence’) to refer to the process of duplicating the sequence or sound for the selected event, thus making it a unique sequence.
How would you prefer it to be named?
I’m also considering making some changes to the tool shortcuts behaviour. I am annoyed by the fact that the shift key is used to toggle selection state of events in the editors. Standard Windows behaviour is to use the control key for selection toggle, as it is done in e.g. Podium listboxes. I think it would be more consistent to also use the control key to toggle event selections. This will mean that the previous use of the control key as a shortcut for drag-resizing events must be abandoned. I still think this is a valuable shortcut, so I’m thinking of reassigning the alt key for this purpose. The alt key currently is used for temporary selection of the segment tool, which then must be abandoned. I personally don’t use the segment tool that much, so I think that dropping the shortcut for this is ok. Anyone disagree?
This also means that the shift key then can be used as shortcut for marquee selection, even if starting the marquee drag on top of an existing event.
After clicking on an event and starting to drag (without using key shortcuts), the control key can be pressed to create a duplicate of the event when dropped. When dragging a sequence or sound event, the control key currently creates phantom copies. This will be changed to create unique copies instead. Using the alt key when dropping will then be used for creating phantom copies. This is similar to dragging files in Windows explorer or the desktop.
Any comments to this?
Frits
super_crunchyin terms of what people are familiar with, I think ‘phantom’ or ‘ghost’ is better. But technically, something like ‘reference’ woudl be better IMO. ‘Reference’ seems to capture the essence of this functionality IMO, as would something like ‘master’ ie ‘master clip’ but it may become confused with the master output and/or mastering?
If you end up leaving it as ‘phantom’ I think that would be fine as it has the same meaning as ‘ghost’ anyway. I’m quite happy with the term ‘phantom copy’
regarding ALT key and segment tool, I don’t use this much either, so I’d be happy for the ALT key to be used elsewhere. I personally use the insert key to create phantom copies.
duncanparsonsI always liked your use of the word ‘phantom’. Lexically, I prefer it to ‘ghost’. It also stands out from other apps, whilst retaining all meaning and nuance. I’m very happy with all of your current terminology.
wrt key combinations – I’ve learnt the current ones, but am happy to adopt a new practice that is consistent with the overall windows experience. I think that this is a usability thing that is more relevant than the terminology. As the uptake of Podium increases, it will be harder to get a userbase to update their practices, and having non-std key functions will slow the adoption of the app. This is the best time to make those changes, and I’m all for them 🙂
DSP
super_crunchywell said duncanparsons 🙂
acousmodI think that this is a usability thing that is more relevant than the terminology. As the uptake of Podium increases, it will be harder to get a userbase to update their practices, and having non-std key functions will slow the adoption of the app. This is the best time to make those changes, and I’m all for them
…same for me.
The hard part is that nearly each software use different key combinations.
I’ve tried to put together some of them at http://sonart.free.fr/logiciels/shortcuts.htm
The best solution will be when Podium will have a customize key and mouse option…
Concerning the Ghost or Phantom name, I’ve no real preference since I don’t use this function, and always have to “clone phantom sequence” and “crop unique sequence” after copying…
For me “clone” is better for real duplication. Since ghost seems to be used by other softwares, I suppose that it is better to use it also in Podium ?
Perhaps that control for real copy (like you say Frits) and control + shift for “ghosts” will be good ? In Windows we can use alt or ctrl + shift for the same thing.
This would preserve the alternate key for someting else ? (alt + drag is used for real copies in Live…).
The shift key which is used for moving between tracks (in same time position) in Samplitude and Tracktion (like moving instead of copying in Windows) will be a nice addition…
Concerning the copy itself, there is something a little bit disturbing in Podium, certainly due to the use of the same control key for duplicating and resizing : we must press the control key AFTER begin to drag the clip, wheras in other softwares we can press the modifier key BEFORE (like for resizing).
This will mean that the previous use of the control key as a shortcut for drag-resizing events must be abandoned
So, the solution will be NO NEED for a shortcut to resize events like in all other apps ? 😛
MaxI like “phantom” too. I think it would be easier to recognize “phantom” than “ghost” word in context menu, for example.
@acousmod wrote:
I think that this is a usability thing that is more relevant than the terminology. As the uptake of Podium increases, it will be harder to get a userbase to update their practices, and having non-std key functions will slow the adoption of the app. This is the best time to make those changes, and I’m all for them
…same for me.
And me too.
@acousmod wrote:
Concerning the copy itself, there is something a little bit disturbing in Podium, certainly due to the use of the same control key for duplicating and resizing : we must press the control key AFTER begin to drag the clip, wheras in other softwares we can press the modifier key BEFORE (like for resizing).
Agreed!
@acousmod wrote:
This will mean that the previous use of the control key as a shortcut for drag-resizing events must be abandoned
So, the solution will be NO NEED for a shortcut to resize events like in all other apps ? 😛
If the main tool will be a pencil tool (that can resize events), and there will be a shortcut to rearrange tool, no problem. Just work with pencil tool, and press ‘alt’ (for example) anytime you need to select/move items.Release ‘alt’ button – and here is pencil tool again. That’s my opinion.
P.S. I don’t use segment tool too.
sugesLike Super Crunchy says, I think a technical term sounds better than “phantom”. Damn, why not just call it “poltergeist” hahah.
Seriously though, I’ve always thought of Podium as a very technical and very serious, no-nonsense sequencer. I think a term fitting to those qualities, like “reference” or “alias” or even the very obvious “linked sequence”, or simply “link”, would be better.
Very happy to hear you’re going full-time on this, Frits. This time it’ll be magic. I would specifically focus marketing on Logic users who decided to switch to another sequencer instead of going for the Mac platform. There’s a lot of them, and Zynewave’s got that no-nonsense, 100%-for-professionals feel.
JoachimI’ve always thought that Podium has way too many tools!
As of now, there’s 8 different tools It’s ok to have this many tools, but what really annoys me is that you cannot use just one key modifier to switch between a select & move tool and a draw tool.
From what I’m used to in Reason, is that you start with selecting the select & move tool and just use the Alt key to temporarly select the draw tool. It’s very simple, but it works perfectly. If I want to resize one note, i just click the note and drag the handle that appears at the end. If I want to resize a bunch of notes, I do a drag selection and use the shift key to inverse the selection on the notes i don’t want to affect and drag the handle at the end of one of the selected notes to resize the lenght of every note in the selection.
In Podium, I’m forced to edit the lenght of every note induvidually 🙁
Why is it that we have a segment tool? How useful is segment selections anyway?
I think having a seperate eraser tool is unnessesary when the delete key does the same. Same goes for the pan and zoom tools. They already have keyboard shortcut modifiers assigned to them, which I like by the way.
If you’re going to change tool shortcuts, please do so, but do it now while the userbase still is small. I’m more than willing to adapt.
When it comes to terminology, I would prefer using “linked copy” as the logical choice of words when referring to making copies of sequences that update one another when doing changes. I would also think of it as logical to always make unique copies of sequences by default, and employ a keyboard modifier to demand linked copies.
I am annoyed by the fact that the shift key is used to toggle selection state of events in the editors
I’m not! Reason and Live behaves the same way 😉
Changing it to be more consistent is wise by the way.
Remember, whatever you decide to do, try to follow the K.I.S.S principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid!) 😉
/Joachim
Zynewave@acousmod wrote:
The hard part is that nearly each software use different key combinations.
I’ve tried to put together some of them at http://sonart.free.fr/logiciels/shortcuts.htm
Thanks for the list.
Perhaps that control for real copy (like you say Frits) and control + shift for “ghosts” will be good ? In Windows we can use alt or ctrl + shift for the same thing.
ctrl+shift is used for the zoom-y tool. I’m currently implementing drag+ctrl for unique copies, and drag+alt for phantom copies.
The shift key which is used for moving between tracks (in same time position) in Samplitude and Tracktion (like moving instead of copying in Windows) will be a nice addition…
Thanks for reminding me about this. I have now implemented locking by holding the shift key (after clicking). Either the time or the vertical position of the events are locked, depending on the direction of the mouse drag.
Concerning the copy itself, there is something a little bit disturbing in Podium, certainly due to the use of the same control key for duplicating and resizing : we must press the control key AFTER begin to drag the clip, wheras in other softwares we can press the modifier key BEFORE (like for resizing).
If the modifier keys used for changing drag behaviour should be available before clicking, then it would seriously limit the possible key combinations. Since the shift+ctrl+alt combinations are reserved for the zoom and slide tool shortcuts, there is only the three single shift/ctrl/alt keys available for changing tool behaviour.
Zynewave@Joachim wrote:
I’ve always thought that Podium has way too many tools!
In the next release, the select and rearrange tools are joined into one select tool.
As of now, there’s 8 different tools It’s ok to have this many tools, but what really annoys me is that you cannot use just one key modifier to switch between a select & move tool and a draw tool.
With the new shortcuts, you can do most things with either of the select or pencil tools, so the need to switch will be reduced.
In Podium, I’m forced to edit the lenght of every note induvidually 🙁
On the plan.
Why is it that we have a segment tool? How useful is segment selections anyway?
It’s a fast way for restructuring your arrangement. Cut a few bars and insert them elsewhere. Cutting/pasting segments compresses/expands the timeline, where normal event cut/paste will not modify the timeline.
I think having a seperate eraser tool is unnessesary when the delete key does the same. Same goes for the pan and zoom tools. They already have keyboard shortcut modifiers assigned to them, which I like by the way.
You can just remove those tools from the toolbar then (in the profile properties dialogs).
Remember, whatever you decide to do, try to follow the K.I.S.S principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid!) 😉
I live by that principle every day 😉
duncanparsonsor, when rendered as ‘Occams Razor’:
Entia non sunt multiplicandia, prater necessitum 🙂
DSP