sobaka.
The TelenatorThe CPU, at least on the top-priced Surface tablet is fine. No issues there. The harddrive can hold perhaps a couple of full-sized Podium projects, as long as you have not loaded your tablet with the normal assortment of other programmes and things that most regular users will add to any PC or tablet. One person I know who acquired an advanced release stated, “once I had loaded all of Microsoft’s standard stuff to my drive, and once I installed all my necessary music software, I had less than 80 gigs remaining for anything else. And that was before I put in some of my favourite PC programmes and gadgets I use every day.”
Now, I have personally had the chance to see and use one of these a little while back. The whole RT Metro part of the tablet has no use whatsoever for anyone doing serious audio. Next, the OS of Windows 8 works quite well with all of the audio, DAW plugins, etc., that I’ve either tried myself or seen others use. My own very unscientific benchtest results gave me a savings of roughly 5 to 10% on lower CPU cost when all normal music items were up and running properly. Others have reported up to 15% CPU processing reductions using better scientific means.
So it appears Windows 8 will be just fine for pro audio needs in the processing, even though I greatly prefer Windows 7 all around and will most likely be out buying an extra disk of it very shortly.
The larger issue is that, once you have all your needed software installed on your Surface tablet, there is very little room to do much serious music, very little room for real projects, aside from minor music noodlings, recording melodies that come to your during your flight, etc.
THIS MEANS you will have to have an external drive. Now, once you have that connected, along with your keyboard (since Podium has NO on-screen, or virtual, keyboard to its programme), your interface connection, and perhaps a wired internet connection, then suddenly you are no more portable with it or have any real advantage over a good laptop.
What you do have then, is the minor limitations of the tablet setup itself and the major limitation of no drive space. Simple as that. Of course, you will supposedly have a touch screen to use, but the newest laptops already offer this feature, too.
Please correct me if I am wrong, and I may very well be, but it looks to me your zeal to have a tablet is causing you to think impractically about any of this — and other concerns I haven’t even mentioned yet that others have brought up on those PC forums. I have a little digital recorder, all of $40, to capture any musical bits when I’m traveling. It works simply and just fine. So I ask, where is the advantage in having a tablet?
adimatisPersonally, I think people are just too much inlove with these fancy tablets/touch screens/pocket mobility that are ignoring the obvious disadvantages and to a point, uselessness (is that a word?) of such devices, when it’s about making music.
That is just my opinion.
druid@The Telenator wrote:
Please correct me if I am wrong, and I may very well be, but it looks to me your zeal to have a tablet is causing you to think impractically about any of this — and other concerns I haven’t even mentioned yet that others have brought up on those PC forums. I have a little digital recorder, all of $40, to capture any musical bits when I’m traveling. It works simply and just fine. So I ask, where is the advantage in having a tablet?
The advantage is being able to take more of your home with you outside of your home.
I do really want one, I won’t deny it. Some models will be impractical for outside audio work, that’s true. I never said every tablet would work. I haven’t dared buy a tablet yet, because they’ve been either OSes that I can’t use programs I’m used to on, or older Windows where hardware really did make it far too impractical. New models right now still haven’t, in my opinion, reached that nice balance or niche (storage space, power on time, and that’s just the start). Will I buy one? In this generation or next, yes, very likely. I won’t believe that will be ideal though, but I can see promise in it.
Again, I was only trying to reduce your strong sense of “tablets are a waste of time” (in a manner that appeared to suggest everyone does, or should, agree with you). You have actually come off that, and I have no problem with your more recent posts about that, in response to mine, other than you twisting my words.
Depending entirely on developer interest in and the responsive of (or how much control it has, perhaps?) Windows 8 RT (and of course the hardware, which will of course not likely be in cheaper versions), then it could be useful for pro audio. So could iOS, and Android.
If all you need is what you have, then you’re sorted! That’s great, and I’d never dream of taking that away from you. But I don’t see the relevance to whether or not a tablet can be used in a pro-audio sense or not.
… now, should I start discussing touch interface, and desktop systems? 😆 (it’s ok, I won’t)
The TelenatorBelieve it or not, after long consideration, I’m going back to Windows 7 on a desktop setup next year. I never thought I would go this way after I bought a heavy duty laptop, but I am. I want a larger screen for one. Another reason is the parts — I can switch them out myself, they are about half the price of good laptop equivalents. Those huge towers that we always used to trip over and were a hassle to store under the desk are becoming a thing of the past. Some I’ve been looking at are more like indestructible metal cubes, about the size of a small monitor speaker. More and more over the last two years I’ve found I just don’t have to be all that mobile. People wanting work recorded are coming to me more than begging me to pack up and go to their practice location. I’ll keep the laptop for live stuff, but I don’t really like doing it anymore. I am usually at the mercy of whoever is running the board that night.
I’m fairly certain I’m sticking with Win 7. I’ve compared the two a lot, meanwhile picking up all the software to create a classic Start Page on 8 and other 7 features if needed. Any improvement in boot speed or anything else on 8 I’ve already got beat by tweaking 7 (which I already know far better).
I don’t know if you saw my other thread — maybe read up in some PC blogs and mags — the nerds are suddenly saying that the MS Surface tablet you’re wanting is possibly a dead duck already. It’s not just one mag saying it, either. I found it while searching for other info and it blew me away. If it was just one lonely nerd outfit saying that I’d dismiss it out of hand. I really don’t quite understand what’s going on, but if you find out, do enlighten us.
I was looking at Cubase 7 on an iPad yesterday — very, very tiny and small enough to make me ruin my eyesight. That’s something you might want to check out, too, so you can get an idea of how itty bitty Podium is going to look on a screen that size.
Zynewave@The Telenator wrote:
I was looking at Cubase 7 on an iPad yesterday — very, very tiny and small enough to make me ruin my eyesight. That’s something you might want to check out, too, so you can get an idea of how itty bitty Podium is going to look on a screen that size.
Cubase 7 or the new Cubasis for iPad?
Steinberg is another addition to the list of major DAW developers that have introduced a tablet version, along with Apple GarageBand, Image-Line FL Studio Mobile, etc. I haven’t tried the Cubasis for iPad app, but my impression is that it does not offer more features than what already was offered by a handful of DAW iOS apps from various indie developers.
Still, I consider Steinbergs entry in the tablet market as a strong indicator. One of Steinbergs major selling points for the Cubasis app is that it allows existing Cubase users to create simple projects on the go, and then import it into their main Cubase when they get home.
Considering that the iPad was only introduced 2½ years ago, it’s going to be interesting to see how the market has evolved in a couple of years. There is a lot of innovation to be made with regards to the touch UI on the smaller screen sizes, and I have a lot of ideas that I would like to work on. I believe it is essential for Podiums future, also on desktop systems, that Zynewave can offer a tablet version. I believe that any DAW developer that doesn’t offer a tablet solution will be irrelevant in the DAW market in a few years.
Wrt your concerns that a tablet version will slow down development of other Podium features. That is inevitable, but I don’t think it is as bad as you fear. So far I haven’t spent more time on development for the iOS platform than the initial proof of concept efforts I presented in this topic. Preparation for a future Podium tablet version will start with the desktop version, such as working on improvements for touch input. I don’t intend to split out the development into two different apps. It is going to be one Podium application that will be able to adapt to any screen size and any type of mouse/touch input.
The TelenatorTo be clear, this is Cubasis I was talking about. It is cute but very tiny. And that is a very valid point you bring up as regards Steinberg and the decisions they make. I’m not sure if I’ve ever seen them make a major gaff in all the time they have been around. People may take issue from time to time with the quality or design of certain individual products, but their overall direction shows very careful deliberation. I expect this to continue and possibly even be enhanced with Yamaha ultimately in control now. I could say all the same for them in product design, quality and wisdom. I’ve always had a lot of respect for Yamaha regarding their music products. So, I suppose the conclusion is, if Steinberg thinks there is a healthy market and it’s worth their efforts, then indeed it is.
First and foremost, though, I should have mentioned my appreciation for your assurances in your post above. I think many of us have felt left in the dark to a large degree lately. I still have some concern, because I wonder how features currently needed in Podium now will be received when some form of this DAW is launched on tablet. I’m all too aware of how fussy and demanding the consumer is these days. Although there is currently a dearth of apps and third-party software for a Microsoft tablet, one has to expect that the competition will become fierce before very long. This is, of course, assuming the survival of the platform.
However, now you seem to be making it clear that development on the desktop version will go hand-in-hand with the tablet version, that the two will complement each other — also assuring.
Aside from the fact that a number of Podium users are requesting many of the same features, I’ve also been promoting these to improve Podium’s standing among DAWs. Of these, it just seems to me there are a few that are critically needed — some that won’t require many days to build in — in order for Podium to be taken more seriously within our population.
druidYou’ve actually nailed one of my concerns about the tablet format; the size of the screen. But make it too large, and the tablet is unwieldy for all but the hardcore power tablet users.
My eyesight is, I consider at least, relatively poor. And more elderly people will also have issues with eyesight which, at least for now, is unavoidable. UIs need to be redesigned for the form factor, which is unfortunate but unavoidable. If only there was a trade off worth having, where the same could be used both on a desktop and tablet..! We’re not there yet though.
And I don’t see desktops dying any time soon, honestly (whether they’re the old boxes that I love and will probably keep building until I can no longer do so, or in the more modern AIO form factor). I do see two form factors working as companions in the near future though, desktop and tablet. I’m actually hoping mobiles die out, and that wireless communication with voice control allows using the tablet packed in one’s bag as one’s phone, with a wireless headset. Bluetooth 2.0 certainly doesn’t fulfill that as it drains too much power and is too unreliable (doesn’t seem to be quite standardised enough, either, judging from people online’s preferences for particular Bluetooth stacks and so forth!). I don’t know enough, nor have tested, Bluetooth 4.0 or particularly the low power variant, to make judgement on the new version.
.. wow I’m getting sidetracked. Anyway, like I said, you mentioned a large issue with the tablet format, in my opinion. Which also brings up an issue that will become increasingly problematic with the old Windows interface: Resolution. As screen resolutions inevitably increase, operating systems AND the software running on them need to scale sensibly, and not work on the old method of pixel to pixel mapping. I think Apple is on to something with their scaling thing, though I don’t like everything about how they’ve set it up. Anyway, that means desktop applications like Podium on tablets running on x86 setups (or in other words, NOT Windows 8 RT) will end up being even smaller than they already are.
I guess you’d already have realised this Frits, but if you follow the tablet path, you’ll end up needing to make Podium adjust it’s size scaling depending on the pixel density. From what I’ve read, I think you’ve coded your interface in a rendering style that you could easily scale, and if so, that would take a bit of work out for you, I suspect. 🙂 If I recall, Microsoft “support” three setups: 100%, 180% and another I can’t remember, maybe 150%?
My post is way too long now, I’ll leave it there.
The TelenatorNow that you mention it . . .
I was saying how cute that Cubasis is on an iPad, and I probably should have mentioned that it seemed like there was a lot of ‘stuff’ missing — knobs and buttons — compared to what I remember from Cubase. No wonder they are calling it something different.
I hadn’t thought about it too much but some. I can’t actually prove my vision has got worse in the last couple of years of lengthy staring into a DAW, but it certainly hasn’t got any better. So, what I’m saying is I don’t actually think I can function visually with anything less than a 15.5″ laptop screen. I did think it was cute, what I saw, but doubt I could do serious work on one for more than a few minutes.
One of several reasons I’m planning to go back to a desktop sometime next year is that I crave having a couple of larger screens. I spent all this time collecting the grooviest synths, effects and DAWs, now I’d like to not have them constantly crammed altogether onscreen.
I really don’t know how they are going to fit everything, like you were saying with some kind of universal design. Podium seems more ‘wide-open’ to me and might make a better candidate. Some DAWs have extremely small buttons and delicate features even at full size. I think the main thing I’ll get out of all this is seeing what all these audio/MIDI apps end up looking like on pad PCs (with my reading glasses on, of course).
sobakaneed to increase the functionality of the program …
making music on a tablet is stupid and it is not convenient …
If you want I can write what and how to do,
I know very well the needs of users, and the audio software market, the more graduated in marketing, know a bit about programming, ..
if you need – help than I can 😉 …
The Telenatorsobaka,
I believe you will get a chorus of agreement on your comments above. I saw your one feature request in the thread next to this one — “YOUR FEATURE REQUESTS”. If you have other ideas, I’m sure we would all like to see them.
At this point, there appears to be at least six items everybody wants, starting from simple things, such as a metronome pre-count for recording, and an on-board integrated dither, to more complicated items. How about building a nice TIME STRETCHING package that would integrate with Podium?
How is your winter this year? All my friends from State of NY up through Toronto are getting slammed now with snow — about half a meter in parts of NY.
alex@Sobaca and Telenator
First, I want to wish you two and all other Podium users a happy, musical New Year!
I did a little research. I started with YOUR FEATURE REQUESTS thread (and checked out every other thread that contains feature requests), and found out that there are exactly 6 features that are really frequently mentioned as well as 5 or six more which are also very important (if not exactly as important as the first six). I did all of this very detailed and know exactly how many people asked for some feature. Now I don’t know what I should do with that information. Should I make a Poll and ask everybody to vote for only one (or three) most wanted features? Will Frits read that at all? And if he does, will he consider doing something about it?
Cheers, Alex
The TelenatorAwesome, alex!
I’ve been guessing it was about 6. Haven’t researched or compiled anything since those discussions back then.
Why don’t you make some kind of poll out of it? Is there any way people can vote 1 thru 6, 1 being most needed, or are polls just ‘choose One only’? Anything you can do with the info would be cool. At the very least, you could just post your findings. Thanks, and Happy New Year back to you!
Zynewave@alex wrote:
First, I want to wish you two and all other Podium users a happy, musical New Year!
Happy new year!
Should I make a Poll and ask everybody to vote for only one (or three) most wanted features? Will Frits read that at all? And if he does, will he consider doing something about it?
Go on and make the poll. The poll system only allows one vote per topic though. You could make two or more similar poll topics named: first priority, second priority, etc. which would allow each user to vote on multiple features.
The TelenatorI like polls. It’s half because I like to check little tiny boxes.
Meanwhile, I took stock of my own needs while coming to this New Year’s morning, and I surprised myself. Aside from a project that required elaborate and difficult routing that only REAPER could handle, I’ve found a solution to almost every past challenge so as not to need to rely on another DAW to get things done. I must say, though, I really like having both REAPER and Podium up and running just the way I like them. Both are inexpensive, both can be customised, can ReWire to each other, etc.
So . . . as regards Podium, while alex is putting together our next poll, I just want to list my current Feature Request needs. These are a lot more minimal than when I began working out various issues with Podium:
1.) Pre-Count Metronome (I rarely ever run those annoying things when I’m recording tracks, but I find it very important to have 2 or 4 bars of the clickity clack before the track begins recording. Max 4 bars and then stop making that racket.
2.) I’ve got a great dither from one of the REAPER devs that he calls “Psycho Dither”, but it would be best of we had a good Dither on-board Podium. Too many things to bother with and worry about when bit-reducing and rendering tracks, that’s basically why. We need one that will do the three standard settings variations. I use some version of ‘shaped’ most often.
3.) Global Option Setting for PluginDatabase. I don’t have issues with how plugins are handled as is now, except that I waste a lot of time when I have 6 or 12 projects half-finished and then decide to add some new plugin I’ve discovered globally to all projects. It happens still more than I would have guessed — always some plugin being updated and also lots of new ones still being offered almost every day. That’s an awful lot of repetitive clicking to get a VST into every ongoing project. There ought to be a simpler way.
4.) Improved Routing Capabilities. I’ll leave this intentionally vague. REAPER seems to be the gold standard of DAW routing flexibilities. Have a gander on what it will let you do and copy some, most, or all of that.
5.) Remedy the Native Instruments Problem. I have Reaktor with a few synths and Kontakt with Abbey Road Drums and some orchestral and pop/rock instruments. Got them bundled with hardware. Refuse to buy more gadgets for either, a waste of much time and money to me, but I would like to be able to run them in Podium without any troubles. The drums are excellent, the rest I could live without. I’m no NI fanboi, that’s for certain.
HAS anyone tested, has anyone tried??? I think the best way to handle time stretching and fancier functions is that I want to just spring for Melodyne within the next year. SO, . . . does it work smoothly in Podium? Anyone test it? I need to install the demo I guess and find out. Anyone who has made it work in Podium, please post a mention of this. It’s amazing how good Melodyne is in dealing with harmony editing and such.
Personally, I have to say, that’s about the extent of it. Oh, someone mentioned allowing an external WAV editor — I’m all for that, too! Otherwise, I’ve solved or no longer need much else. There should be a virtual keyboard soon, too, even though I’ve bought a couple and don’t really need one anymore.
[Edit to add] I’m sure I can think of something else eventually, maybe better MIDI usage all around? I don’t know. Otherwise I have never liked those DAWs much that are bloated with a load of puff and things that clutter the work area up, but I’m sure there’s one or more I’m forgetting right now.
Cheers! And a Happy 2013 (we hope)!
sobaka@The Telenator wrote:
How is your winter this year? All my friends from State of NY up through Toronto are getting slammed now with snow — about half a meter in parts of NY.
to -25 in December was not much snow, now -4, but windy …
NY seen in the news 😥 …