[thcilnnahoj]

Links to previous discussions on tools:
http://www.zynewave.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1863
http://www.zynewave.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2097

So the last time tools were mentioned, Frits seemed to lean towards the “a tool per mouse button” method. In this thread I’d like to gather ideas for this, and possibly extend the concept, because I believe working with tools can still be sped up or made more comfortable in a few ways.

First off I’m listing some possible methods I can think of right now. Most of them are not mutually exclusive, and all could be made more powerful if multi-button (4+) computer mice were supported.
A disadvantage of most of these might be that it could feel weird (to us poor people who’re too used to Windows) to do anything besides open menus with the right mouse button, and that this button obviously cannot be used for cancelling anymore while the tool assigned to it is in action.

>> A tool per mouse button
Configure one tool to use for each available mouse button. Has the disadvantage that there’d be no way (or only awkward ways) to open the right-click menu with the cursor directly on an event.

>> Selection by (user-configurable) hotkeys
Switch single tools to use with the left mouse button. I.e., X for select tool, C for pencil tool, V for zoom tool. Such keys could also act as modifiers, i.e., only have the scalpel tool on while holding the key.
Or, combined with the first method above, swap whole tool setups. I.e., pressing Y switches to setup 1 (for example, select / scalpel tools on a 2-button mouse). Pressing X switches to setup 2 (e.g., pencil / eraser), etc. This alone wouldn’t be of much use to people who don’t like using keyboard shortcuts, though.

>> Context-dependent tools
As above, you’d set up a tool per mouse button, but they would automatically be switched out depending on what’s under the cursor. For example, pencil / hand tools on the timeline, and select / scalpel tools on events. See this SONAR video mentioned in a thread linked above.

>> Customizable hitboxes on events
Dependent or independent on tools. For example, configure clicking inside the upper half of events to split, and clicking in the bottom half to select. For a successful implementation, check this page for SSL Soundscape.
A big disadvantage, in my opinion, is that some hitboxes (and thus editing functions) will become unavailable or tricky to use when events are partially off-screen or zoomed very small.

>> Use (user-configurable) modifier keys for different tools
The modifiers Shift, Ctrl, Alt currently try do the same thing regardless of which tool is selected. Their actions are not useful for all tools, though – e.g., Ctrl and Alt for the eraser tool do nothing special as far as I’m aware. Making this configurable could allow users to create their own modifier actions for tools.
The disadvantage is that it might become confusing and throw over the tools as they were designed to use when functions start to overlap (e.g., when a user assigns Alt-clicking with the select tool to split events).

Apart from that, I’d also like to list some tools I could’ve used sometimes (don’t necessarily need to be separate tools, but could be expanded editing functions of already existing ones):

– Slip tool (alternatively, the bottom edge of events could be used to slip, although it might become fiddly when there’s not much vertical space between events).
– “Text” tool – to make time selections inside events only (alternatively use Shift as a modifier for the scalpel and/or eraser tools to delete the selected area – works only for deleting, though).
– Paint tool – click, hold and drag to create multiple notes in a row (can be done nicely with the insert key currently, but not quite as fast).
– Crossfade tool (alternatively could be a bar at the top edge of crossfaded sections on events, or a separate crossfade editor window).
– “Roll” tool (see this on the website for MOTU Digital Performer).
– Ability to use the scalpel tool on notes as well. Also, when snap is activated, click-dragging with the scalpel tool over a part of an event could slice it to grid-sized chunks.

Allow me to end this with a film quote, as hommage to Conquistador’s Lord of the Rings FR thread! 😆

“Frits, I’m going to let you in on a little secret. Every day, once a day, give yourself a present. Don’t plan it. Don’t wait for it. Just let it happen. It could be a new shirt at the men’s store, a catnap in your office chair, or two cups of good, hot black coffee. Or just posting a razzing smilie in response to one of those far too long posts.”

All kidding aside, anyone have better ideas how to manage tools, thoughts on missing tools/editing functions, or general comments on any of this?

[LiquidProj3ct]

With Pencil tool I’ve almost all I need. I cannot split (scissor) notes and the right click it’s totally unuseful. I can move them, resize them, delete ONE of them, draw them.

It’s true they few rare circunstances when I miss some tools as you said:

– Slip tool (alternatively, the bottom edge of events could be used to slip, although it might become fiddly when there’s not much vertical space between events).

I’d do something like ALT+LMB for this in the event. Nowadays this is a resize shortcut, but I find it obsolete having easy access to resize dragging note borders.

– “Text” tool – to make time selections inside events only (alternatively use Shift as a modifier for the scalpel and/or eraser tools to delete the selected area – works only for deleting, though).

I never need something like that. I *think* it’s one of these rare tools you need use twice each project, because you can easily replace it with slip/trim actions.

– Paint tool – click, hold and drag to create multiple notes in a row (can be done nicely with the insert key currently, but not quite as fast).

I do this operation unfrecuently too. Once you started to make a project it’s a rare tool too. Useful for quick acid lines. I have enough with INS key anyway. You would spend more time switching too that just keeping down the INS key.

– “Roll” tool (see this on the website for MOTU Digital Performer).

This is nice. I wound’t use it unless I record a band again, but I can see why this tool it’s really useful. However… Why make a new tool for that? You could easily select two crossfaded clips and (if both are selected only) you simple drag the intersection and they would move as we see in MOTU page.

– Ability to use the scalpel tool on notes as well. Also, when snap is activated, click-dragging with the scalpel tool over a part of an event could slice it to grid-sized chunks.

Yes, a few times each project I need this, scissor chords. Nowadays I have to create a new chord to do this.

Don’t get me wrong, I want that Podium get bigger, but I don’t want that thing which made that I flee from other nice host: They’re overbloadted with tools, menus, synths and buttons that you only need use two minutes in 70 hours that you need to make a new song.

IMO, the need of move the cursor from the target event to select a button (or menu entry) do a operation, and move again to the button it’s a big time loss. The same with too many shortcuts. Few of them are nice and helpful but too much are a big drawback.

And about your methods the only good way I see to work with a decent speed are “A tool per mouse button” (which is a cheap and dirty solution to…) and something like Sonar PRV Tool. If a event have enough regions to define LMB, RMB and modifiers it will the end of all the drama about events behaviour. I think all other behaviours you listed are covered with this tool. Yes, it will take some time program this, but I think it will be a good thing. New users will customize their workflow with events and they will feel ‘in home’.

[Conquistador]

@thcilnnahoj wrote:

– Paint tool – click, hold and drag to create multiple notes in a row (can be done nicely with the insert key currently, but not quite as fast).

I would like to see something like that for Audio events. ACID has probably the best example of this. Hold the edge of the file and drag to paint repetitions of the audio event.

Allow me to end this with a film quote, as hommage to Conquistador’s Lord of the Rings FR thread! 😆

>tee hee< 😛

[thcilnnahoj]

@LiquidProj3ct wrote:

– “Text” tool – to make time selections inside events only (alternatively use Shift as a modifier for the scalpel and/or eraser tools to delete the selected area – works only for deleting, though).

I never need something like that. I *think* it’s one of these rare tools you need use twice each project, because you can easily replace it with slip/trim actions.

Oh, I personally would use it a lot. I think it’s more comfortable to select an area with one swipe and delete it than to do two splits, select the split part and delete it. Take a look at this GIF (of course I wouldn’t do it at this zoom level). Though I guess it’s not as useful for MIDI events. Like I said, it could probably be done with a new modifier key for the scalpel or eraser tools, but that would only allow to delete segments, when I might really want to cut out a part and move it.

– Paint tool – click, hold and drag to create multiple notes in a row (can be done nicely with the insert key currently, but not quite as fast).

I do this operation unfrecuently too. Once you started to make a project it’s a rare tool too. Useful for quick acid lines. I have enough with INS key anyway. You would spend more time switching too that just keeping down the INS key.

Maybe… that depends on how tools can be switched when/if a new way of handling them comes around. As it is now, I often hold the insert key too long or not long enough, so I have to manually correct how many notes were drawn.
Anyway, this one isn’t so important. The only one I really miss is slip.

– “Roll” tool (see this on the website for MOTU Digital Performer).

This is nice. I wound’t use it unless I record a band again, but I can see why this tool it’s really useful. However… Why make a new tool for that? You could easily select two crossfaded clips and (if both are selected only) you simple drag the intersection and they would move as we see in MOTU page.

You mean that, when both events are selected, moving either the end point of the first one or the start of the second one should move the whole fade? That could work, good idea.

Don’t get me wrong, I want that Podium get bigger, but I don’t want that thing which made that I flee from other nice host: They’re overbloadted with tools, menus, synths and buttons that you only need use two minutes in 70 hours that you need to make a new song.

I mostly agree, but I wouldn’t call a feature that saves any user (maybe not you, maybe not me) from manual work bloat. After all, that’s why computers are so great, no? 🙂

Since there hasn’t been any indication given whether there’ll actually ever be more tools, these’re not really requests – I’m just throwing out ideas on what I think would be useful and how it could potentially work.

[LiquidProj3ct]

@thcilnnahoj wrote:

You mean that, when both events are selected, moving either the end point of the first one or the start of the second one should move the whole fade? That could work, good idea.

Yest, that what I want mean 🙂

I mostly agree, but I wouldn’t call a feature that saves any user (maybe not you, maybe not me) from manual work bloat. After all, that’s why computers are so great, no? 🙂

Forgive me, maybe what I said could sound a little rude, I only wanted to tell you about my ideas. Since I’m not enlightened (yet :P) sometimes I can be a little selfish, and if I don’t see its inmediate purpose I think they’re unuseful tools and bloatware, just what I fear 🙂

[Zynewave]

I have bookmarked this thread for future reading.

I haven’t even finished reading the epic “The Device Mapping Thread” 8-[

[thcilnnahoj]

@LiquidProj3ct wrote:

Forgive me, maybe what I said could sound a little rude, I only wanted to tell you about my ideas. Since I’m not enlightened (yet :P) sometimes I can be a little selfish, and if I don’t see its inmediate purpose I think they’re unuseful tools and bloatware, just what I fear 🙂

No no, you don’t sound rude at all. 🙂 Don’t hesitate to speak out!
Not only are you entitled to your opinion, of course, but most of the discussions on this forum lead to ideas for improvement in the end that were missed in the first draft (group panel redesign, or your idea how to move fades).

@Zynewave wrote:

I have bookmarked this thread for future reading.

I haven’t even finished reading the epic “The Device Mapping Thread” 8-[

If you can hold out a little longer, I’m in negotiations with my publisher regarding hardcover editions, together with “The Routing Thread (title pending)”!