Zynewave.
ConquistadorHi Frits,
I recently bounced an audio file from RMX and it plays perfectly well in Podium but it will not play in Windows media player.Usually a standard wav file will play in MP.
I even tried saving the sound through the sound editor to my desktop but MP still cannot open it. When right clicking on the file on my desktop it is actually a 64bit file! Which probably explains why!
When I go to set up Preferences and click on the Audio tab it reads thus…
Mixer Engine resolution > 64 Bit floating Point
New sound bit resolution > 24 bit
This message follows…New sounds created on bounce tracks will be assigned the bit resolution of the mixing engine.
Is there no way to use the 64bit mixing engine and bounce a 24bit file? If not can an option be added to do this?
It seems a bit odd that I can record in 24bit with the 64 bit mixing engine enabled but not bounce in 24bit. Or is that not possible either?
Thanks. 😉
ZynewaveBounce track sounds are created with the mixer engine resolution, to ensure that the bounced recording reproduces exactly the non-bounced material. You can override this, by entering the sound properties of the created bounce track sound and change the bit resolution from 64bit floats to 24 bit.
Conquistador@Zynewave wrote:
You can override this, by entering the sound properties of the created bounce track sound and change the bit resolution from 64bit floats to 24 bit.
I have seen this option, but surely if I change the bit resolution from 64bit to 24bit in this way without dithering I am effectively truncating the file. 😕
If that is the solution available in Podium thats fine but I just thought there was a way to utilise the 64 bit mixing engine and not have to truncate a 64bit file down to 24 bits.
What I am simply tryng to achieve is simply the bouncing of a 24bit file within a 64bit mixing engine project.
Previously I had my bit depth set to 24bit for the project, and the mixing engine was set to 64bit.
Correct me if I am wrong but there are two options for the mixing engine…32bit and 64bit which is great.
However it appears any bounced track will either be a 32bit file or 64bit file. Correct?
If thats the case then there does not appear to be any way to bounce a 24bit file out of Podium. Thats OK as I can work with 32 bit files. The size of 32bit files is what concerns me, talk less of 64bit files.
If there was some way to use the 64 bit engine without having to choose between a 32bit bounced file and a 64 bit bounced file that would be great.
As it stands now (please correct me if I am wrong) there is no way to avoid truncating a 32bit file to 24 bits after bouncing (using the 32bit mixing engine) or even worse tuncating a 64bit file down to 24bits after bouncing using the 64bit mixing engine?
Or does Podium get around the truncating issue somehow?
ZynewaveYour project is always mixed in the resolution you define for the engine in the preferences. Created bounce track sounds are by default set to this resolution to ensure exact reproduction. You are free to change any of the bounce tracks sounds to any resolution you desire. Typically you would do this only for the master track. Setting the master sound to 24 bit will still do all the mixing in 64 bit, but the bounce recording to the master track is stored in the 24 bit file, and thus is truncated of course. After you have sent your 24 bit file to the CD-factory (perhaps), you can always change the resolution of the master sound back to 64 bit float, and redo the bounce recording.
Do I misunderstand what you are trying to do?
Edit: And yes, Podium does not have dithering yet, so the 64 bit engine output is truncated to the 24 bit resolution file.
ConquistadorI don’t think you misunderstood me, however when you said…
“Setting the master sound to 24 bit will still do all the mixing in 64 bit, but the bounce recording to the master track is stored in the 24 bit file, and thus is truncated of course”
By “setting the master sound” do you mean changing the properties of a bounced file on the master out? If yes then I understand what you mean.
I must admit I was a bit puzzled by this statement though…
“After you have sent your 24 bit file to the CD-factory (perhaps), you can always change the resolution of the master sound back to 64 bit float, and redo the bounce recording”
I assume CD factory means a mastering house or CD copying facility.As for changing the resolution back to 64 bit why would this be of any benefit? Also why would I then want to redo the bounce?
I think we may have our wires crossed a little 8) .
I am trying to work in Podium using the 64bit mixing engine, which I think is a great feature to use. But I also want to simply bounce my midi files / events to a 24bit file, not a 64bit or 32bit file that must be truncated.
I will be doing my own mastering so once the files are at 24bit I would do my own dithering to 16bits.
I just want to avoid having huge 32 bit files on my hard drive which while not small, with the volume of work I have coming up will not realistically be possible to store all the projects I want to create in Podium.
External storage is one solution but I would rather spare that expense as Podium brings my costs down at the moment not up. So great work on your part there. 😉
I certainly do not want to do any uneccessary bit conversions if they can be avoided and simply want a 24bit bounced file that can be dithered to 16 bits.
I might have been able to use Izotope Ozone http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/ozone/ for instance in Podium, but Podium does not have an export function for the output of any tracks or even the master out which is where ozone would sit. So if Podium could bounce a 24bit file I would have to choose save as from the sound editor and get the file out of Podium that way and dither it elsewhere. Which is ok.
Just trying to avoid huge 32 bit files. Or truncated 24bit files. Any plans to implement 24 bit bouncing in Podium in future?
I think dithering is on the plan already If I am not mistaken.
ZynewaveI think we may have our wires crossed a lit
Yeah, I think so too 😉
By “setting the master sound” do you mean changing the properties of a bounced file on the master out?
Yes.
I assume CD factory means a mastering house or CD copying facility.As for changing the resolution back to 64 bit why would this be of any benefit? Also why would I then want to redo the bounce?
The CD factory remark was just a silly example. I suggested changing it back to 64-bit, because I got the impression that you were unhappy with any truncation of the 64-bit output.
Since you’re suggesting 24-bit bounce files, I gather you are concerned with the large 32/64-bit bounce files that you will get on each bounce track. If you are going to bounce into 24-bit files on individual plugin bounce tracks, there is not much point in using 64-bit mixing engine in the first place. This is not a problem on the master track though, as the mixing engine output is sent to the monitoring output before being recorded (and thus truncated to e.g. 24 bit) into the master bounce sound.
ConquistadorIf you are going to bounce into 24-bit files on individual plugin bounce tracks, there is not much point in using 64-bit mixing engine in the first place.
Maybe, maybe not…
a. It is not possible to bounce a 24bit file anyway at the moment in Podium even if I tried to do so without the 64 bit option anyway. 🙂 Tracktion2 allows this so there must be some advantage to it or it’s a very good marketing trick. More on this later.
b. Are there any plans to include a 24 bit bouncing feature?
This is not a problem on the master track though, as the mixing engine output is sent to the monitoring output before being recorded (and thus truncated to e.g. 24 bit) into the master bounce sound.
Are you saying here that the truncating process does not affect the master output?
More on bouncing 24bit tracks within a 64bit mixing project (I am sure you are the expert here but hear me out) 8)
Tracktion2 for instance has a 64bit summing option (which is described as improving audio quality when mixing tracks) but when a file is bounced within a project with a 64bit summing setting switched on it bounces at the recording bit depth set within its settings panel for instance 16 or 24 bit. It can be done.
There must be some advantage to this process within Tracktion2, surely?.
Not your product I know, but I can’t think of anything else to use as direct comparison, sorry. 🙁
I get the feeling the 24 bit bounce option issue might upset the inner workings of Podium, which I would not want, but if you are wondering about the feasability of it, it can and has been done. And there must be some advantage to it as Tracktion for instance allows the bouncing of 16, 24 or even 32 bit files *within* a 64 bit summing /mixing project. This is what I am trying to do in Podium but it appears as you said to be pointless. Why?
Even other hosts that do not have 64bit summing will bounce a file at the bit depth settting (24bit for instance) not the mixing engine setting which is usually 32bit float in Cubase for instance.
Yes my concern is about the huge 32 bit files, and are there any plans to include a 24bit bounce feature as other hosts already have?
If not, thats cool as Podium is already a highly productive environment for professional music making, but I cannot work with 32 bit file bounces at this point (hard drive space).
Also I, along with many other producers prefer not to truncate any file at any point of the production process. 😉
ZynewaveI think we’re misunderstanding each other here.
a. It is not possible to bounce a 24bit file anyway at the moment in Podium even if I tried to do so without the 64 bit option anyway.
It is possible. All you have to do is go into the sound properties for the sound on the bounce track, and set it to the resolution you want. Anything from 8 to 32 bit fixed point, or 32/64 bit floats. And this applies nomatter if you are using 32 or 64 bit mixing engine. Podium will by default create sounds on bounce tracks with the mixer engine resolution, because anything else will cause a quality degradation in the bounced file.
Are you saying here that the truncating process does not affect the master output?
Yes. Not during the bounce recording. When you switch to bounce playback, you will hear the truncated sound file.
If I should try to explain it on other words; When Podium records on bounce tracks, the output of the mixer engine is extracted to the sound file. If this sound file is using a lower bit resolution, then you loose bit resolution in the sound file, but it does not affect the audio streaming. Of course if you then switch the bounce recording on, to free up the plugin resources recorded to the bounce file, then the lower-resolution bounce file will be playing. This is why bounce tracks by default are set to the mixer engine resolution. I do not want to introduce quality loss in the bounce recording system.
Conquistadora. It is not possible to bounce a 24bit file anyway at the moment in Podium even if I tried to do so without the 64 bit option anyway.
It is possible. All you have to do is go into the sound properties for the sound on the bounce track, and set it to the resolution you want. Anything from 8 to 32 bit fixed point, or 32/64 bit floats. And this applies nomatter if you are using 32 or 64 bit mixing engine. Podium will by default create sounds on bounce tracks with the mixer engine resolution, because anything else will cause a quality degradation in the bounced file.
Correct but the process you outlined above has a single negative which is not addressed by going into the properties panel and changing the resolution. Your suggestion above will give me the 24 bit file I want but not without truncating it first. Which we have already discussed earlier in this thread.
When I said it is not possible to bounce a 24 bit I was right. You said it can be done by going into the sound properties for the file and making changes there. But that is *post* bounce and will truncate the file. See what I mean? That is, *after* the bounce has been done, so in Podium it still is not possible to bounce a file to 24bits without having to change the bounced file, which will either be 64bits or 32bits to start with, based on the mixer engine options that currently exist in Podium.
It can indeed be done, if truncating the file afterwards is not an issue, but after carefully creating a file in the first place it is seems strange to truncate it at any stage of the music process.
Are you saying here that the truncating process does not affect the master output?
Yes. Not during the bounce recording. When you switch to bounce playback, you will hear the truncated sound file.
Useful to know, but even that process cannot produce bounced playback without truncating. Also it does not adress the truncating issues for track level bounces either.
If I should try to explain it on other words; When Podium records on bounce tracks, the output of the mixer engine is extracted to the sound file. If this sound file is using a lower bit resolution, then you loose bit resolution in the sound file, but it does not affect the audio streaming. Of course if you then switch the bounce recording on, to free up the plugin resources recorded to the bounce file, then the lower-resolution bounce file will be playing. This is why bounce tracks by default are set to the mixer engine resolution. I do not want to introduce quality loss in the bounce recording system.
I agree with you here, any sort of degradation or qulaity loss in the bounce recording system is to be avoided for obvious reasons. I appreciate you taking your time with that one.
You have somewhat answered my question about a future 24 bit bounce feature. It is not going to happen as it will interfere with the bounce process in Podium.
It appears the development of the Podium Sequencer involved a process that somehow (read you know better than me here 🙂 ) tied the mixing engine setting to the bounce resolution.
Now other hosts like Tracktion2, Cubase e.t.c are more flexible in this area as their mixing engine settings – 32bit for Cubase and Sonar (but 32 or 64 bit for Tracktion2) allow a user to choose the bounced file resolution based on the bit depth setting.
So choosing a 64 bit or a 32bit mixing environment in other hosts does not mean you have to have 64 or 32 bit bounced files. Are you with me?
Forstår du det? (Thats about as far as my Danish goes…google is great!) 😀 You gotta laugh Frits, tech support can be amusing you know! 🙂
Anyway…the percentage of Podium users, past, present and future that share my interest in being able to bounce a 24 bit file while using a 32bit mixing engine(which is pretty standard across all hosts) or 64 bit mixing engine setting, may amount to no more than 0.00000000000000000001%.
However I have brought this up and have engaged in this discussion so far, because you encourage user involvement as far as software updates are concerned (its on the home page) 8). This approach is extremely rare
nowadays and for me is a massive selling point for Podium.
Instead of simply gathering requests without any consultation with users you ask and listen carefully or read carefully in this instance 🙂 I doubt anyone has heard or can hear an online forum such as this! 😆
I think that is why May was such a big month for registration on this forum. Not sure how many bought the product but interest is clearly growing.
In a nut shell Frits…
You have tied the bounce resolution to the mixing engine so any bounced files can only be 32 or 64 bit. Any attempt to change the file to 24bit will truncate it first.
I want to avoid the large 32bit files *and* the truncation process. It seems Podium can avoid neither of these pitfalls, as I will be doing alot of track level bouncing as well.
The fact that you you have used up so much virtual ink on this discussion shows your commitment to solving problems and listening to suggestions. Full marks there.
I even remember a discussion about busses and how Duncan made some suggestions that you eagerly listened to and implemented ages ago. So I think you have a great track record.
I guess I will just have to see what kind of workarounds there are, if any, to the large file issue and the truncation process for now… If you know any please let me know and no Danish. It took long enough for us to get this far on these issues in English 😆
Tak! 😉
ZynewaveYour suggestion above will give me the 24 bit file I want but not without truncating it first. Which we have already discussed earlier in this thread.
There is no way you can put a 32 or 64 bit floating point audio signal into a 24 bit file without truncation. What we discussed earlier was the lack of a dithering option in Podium. But even applying dithering while converting/truncating floating point to 24 bit fixed point still introduces a quality degradation.
Maybe we are talking about different uses here. I consider the Podium bouncing system more like the ‘freeze’ features other hosts have. I believe I’ve read that freeze files in e.g. Tracktion are stored in floating point files. The ‘bounced file resolution’ option you refer to for other hosts, is perhaps more intended for exporting audio files for use in other applications. This is also why I suggested that it is only the master output bounce sound that you should set to a lower bit-resolution, because this is normally the only file you need to do further processing on with other mastering tools, mp3-conversion, etc. All other bounce tracks in an arrangement are primarily used for freeing up plugin resources. If you convert these bounce sounds to a lower resolution, then your bounced recordings will not have the same detail as the non-bounced audio.
The only advantage of using e.g. 24 bit fixed point bounce files will be the reduced file sizes. There are major drawbacks though. It is less CPU efficent because the floating point signal has to be converted and clipped to fixed point. Having overloaded signals in the mixing engine is not a problem, because you can lower the gain of the signal further up the hierarchy. But if you put a fixed point bounce into this signal path, then any overloaded signal will be clipped, causing further degradation.
When I said it is not possible to bounce a 24 bit I was right. You said it can be done by going into the sound properties for the file and making changes there. But that is *post* bounce and will truncate the file. See what I mean? That is, *after* the bounce has been done, so in Podium it still is not possible to bounce a file to 24bits without having to change the bounced file, which will either be 64bits or 32bits to start with, based on the mixer engine options that currently exist in Podium.
It is irrelevant if it is done post or pre bouncing. You can choose to create the blank bounce sound, change the properties of the sound, and then do the bounce recording. That would be *pre* bouncing, but it is still the same truncation process that occurs.
It can indeed be done, if truncating the file afterwards is not an issue, but after carefully creating a file in the first place it is seems strange to truncate it at any stage of the music process.
Yes, but your original question was how to create a 24 bit bounce file. I thought that was why we are discussing this.
It appears the development of the Podium Sequencer involved a process that somehow (read you know better than me here ) tied the mixing engine setting to the bounce resolution.
Not at all. In fact you can create bounce sounds of any bit resolution from 8 to 32 bit fixed point, or 32/64 bit floating point. That is more than what other hosts offer. The only thing Podium does not have, is an option in the preferences that allows you to set the default bit resolution of bounce files. I am hesitant to implement that option because as this discussion hopefully has revealed, choosing anything else than the mixing engine resolution will introduce quality loss. By forcing you to modify the bounce sound properties manually I ensure that you are aware that you’re throwing bits away 😉
The bouncing process is just more visible in Podium, compared to other hosts that stores hidden freeze files. This is perhaps what is confusing you.
I want to avoid the large 32bit files *and* the truncation process.
Those two wishes are unfortunately mutually exclusive, and that applies to all hosts.
Conquistador@Zynewave wrote:
The only advantage of using e.g. 24 bit fixed point bounce files will be the reduced file sizes. There are major drawbacks though. It is less CPU efficient because the floating point signal has to be converted and clipped to fixed point.
I certainly have read about this somewhere in the past.
The bouncing process is just more visible in Podium, compared to other hosts that stores hidden freeze files. This is perhaps what is confusing you.
Not sure. I think we will have to agree to disagree on certain points discussed in this thread. Sorry Frits.
The additional questions I added as the discussion went on were simply because of the many other issues that popped up the longer this thread went on.
I will try and find a solution myself, to the problems I raised in this thread. Your points have certainly been very helpful and have given me a better understanding as to why certain things work a certain way in Podium.
However I think the discussion could go on for weeks as I still have questions but I am sure neither of us have that kind of time on our hands so thanks for the information. I have a better idea of what I need to do to address the issues raised.
The time you took to attempt to arive at a solution for me, is certainly appreciated.
Thanks again. 8)
acousmodHi,
I’ve followed this discussion with interest, since I have some questions that are related.
My problem is very personal, and will not have interest for 0.0000000000000000000000000001 % of users…
That is : while waiting for the futher automation enhancements of Podium…, I’m actually making multichannel audio files in other hosts, and then import the files to arrange them in Podium, using only the volume envelopes.
First, I must make some cleaning and selections in the files, and since they are 16 channels files it can be only done inside Podium.
Actually, the only way to do this is to bounce the selected parts of the files to new ones (there will be soon a “save selection as” option in the sound editor ;-)).
What I want is only to cut the files, without any change, gain or other.
My question is : is the process transparent, like in an audio mastering tool like SoundForge, or does the mixing engine and the truncation to 16 bits will change something to the files ?
At this stage, I don’t want to change the bit depth of the files, 16 channels files take a lot of place and my purpose is then to mix then in a multitrack way, so there it could be also a disk transfert rate problem if I use 32 bits files or even 24 bits.
The final stage will be of course 24 bit files, and for me a dithering option will be appreciate too, but I can make it inside Bidule from the 32 bits files, so it is not a priority.
ZynewaveMy problem is very personal, and will not have interest for 0.0000000000000000000000000001 % of users…
If that is the percentage you represent of the total Podium user base, I would be a rich man 😮
My question is : is the process transparent, like in an audio mastering tool like SoundForge, or does the mixing engine and the truncation to 16 bits will change something to the files ?
If you are using the mixing engine, then the sound files will be converted to 32/64 bit floats (depending on your mixing engine preferences), mixed, and then converted back to the format of your bounced sound file. If all your sound files are 16 bit, then they can be converted to floats without data loss, and thus the process should be transparent. I haven’t verified it, but it should also be transparent for 24 bit files. You can verify this by comparing your source file with the bounced output file.