Per Lichtman@Zynewave wrote:
Nucleum 0.27 is uploaded.
Added a panner dial to each filter, next to the osc level dials. The panners are also available in the mod target menus.
Removed one of the shape dials and replaced it with a “Mod Glide” dial. This can be used to set a glide time for a modulator. It’s a cheap way of creating a slower responding output of e.g. an LFO, or to create different parameter responses to modwheel action. The one remaining shape dial has been renamed to “Mod Warp”.
The delay effect has been redesigned to have separate delays for L/R channels to allow for proper processing of the pannable filter outputs. Also added a lowpass to the delay feedback, to immitate a more natural decay.
Exciting stuff. Downloading now. 🙂
Per LichtmanClearly I was more tired than I realized because I really thought I had responded to Zynewave’s most recent post. *Thinks.* No I remember: I spent time experimenting with using Shape vs. Bus and Bus Multiplier. Not going to lie: the results that shape produced were different. In fact they were sometimes closer to how I “felt” that I wanted a parameter to scale. Interesting results using velocity via shape 1 to osc 1>osc 1. But, it still seems less useful than the other 2 features that seem to be competing for the GUI space. 🙂 Plus, if users with a preset designing background had a tricky time getting the hang of it, how would a novice fair?
Seems like more of a Nucleum 1.5 feature to me. 😉 Thanks for helping to sorting that one out so clearly and quickly though!
Per Lichtman@rinxai wrote:
@H-man wrote:
The Shape dials only affect the LFOs (I think this is right?). So if you are using an LFO to modulate a parameter then you can use the Shape dials to tweak the LFO. Depending on the speed of the LFO, I thought this could have a substantial impact on the sound, especially at the start of a note.
Frits, can you confirm?
Yes, please confirm. I suppose I need to test this more attentively.
I would also appreciate the confirmation on this. I haven’t been able to employ them effectively myself. So far one of the only routings I was able to use to achieve any effect with them was as follows
Shape 1 —> LFO 1 Speed
LFO 1 —> Shape 1
LFO 1 —> [Parameter desired to be automated by LFO]
Using Shape 1 in only 1 of the two spots designated above produced no results. If it is working properly, I would still say that it is a bit too counter-intuitive given how easy the synth is to use in general. I mean, you can open up a patch “reset” and just start experimenting with the knobs really. Okay, so you do have to assign at least the 2nd or 3rd oscillator to a waveform if you want to use a knob other than 1>1, but seriously: really easy to delve into. 🙂
Per Lichtman@Zynewave wrote:
@Per Lichtman wrote:
Would it be possible to extend the maximum ADR times (say to 20 seconds or at least to 10) without losing the recently acquired detail in the early part of the knob?
I can’t make this change without affecting all existing presets, so I think I prefer to let it stay at 8 seconds max.
See my earlier comment about preserving legacy presets at the alpha stage, but it is indeed already working well at 8 seconds so I’m not attached at all. 🙂
@Zynewave wrote:
-Master Level (Volume) ADSR: I know, there are already several envelopes but here is an issue as I see it. If I am going to tweak the release times of the different oscillators to use them to change the sound of the release, then sometimes I need to have them be longer than the length of the sound itself. If I use them with such long release times while playing a pad right now, then all voices are rapidly eaten up. Also, I can tell you from my early experience with synths that having a master ADSR makes it much easier to design your first patch if you are a newbie, even if you aren’t worrying about the complexities I mentioned. Depending on what is easiest to deal with, it might also be made to only attenuate relative to the current level position just so that the level won’t blast your ears if something goes wrong in the modulation, but that really isn’t necessary.
I assume you mean the case where you use an osc as a pure modulator, and set the release to longer than the actual sound output. I see your point, but it would require a rework of the synth design to fit in an extra amp envelope. One of the challenges I set myself with this synth was to find a ballance between flexibility and using as few parameters as possible.
Actually, I would replace the shape dials with the Master ADSR. The shape dials are a bit overkill here and most presets don’t use them so you would have space there. I haven’t found any of my own presets improved significantly by using the shape dials in combination with the mod matrix either. It would definitely keep the polyphony from getting eaten up as quickly.
@Zynewave wrote:
The filters are mono, but I could add two panners for the two filter outputs. Those should of course be modulatable as well. From one of your previous recommendations, I was considering removing the delay, and add the two panner dials instead. But I see that a lot of the user-made presets are already using the delay, so I’m afraid we’re stuck with the delay. I’ll look at ways to improve the delay later on.
As rinxai indicated in his last post (where he also defended keeping the delay) adding panning would help flesh out the synth. To that I would add that delay can be externally added, while panning the filters cannot. In fact, without some way of internally panning different elements it would require having to load up an entirely different instance of Nucleum, disabling one of the filters in the first instance, opening up the same patch in the second instance, reworking the filter… and then finally panning each one externally. Not only is it a lot more work (and a lot more CPU) to accomplish the same result but the also potentially more MIDI tracks, more output tracks and potentially worse sync between the two.
So, in short, one more vote for panning dials. If space is an issue, I would recommend decreasing the space above and below the OSC dials in Filter 1 and 2 to make room for a small panning dial beneath the filter selection dialog.
Per Lichtman@Zynewave wrote:
Hi Per,
Thanks for the detailed report. Overall, I’m pleased to hear that the synth has a fair chance of being useful for a lot of people.
The delay is the SM default “ping-pong delay”. I wouldn’t mind replacing it with a more useful delay implementation, if that can help with the creation of pad patches. I tried with the SM default reverb module, but to my ears it sounds terrible. Can you refer me to some examples of delays you find useful?
-ADSRs: Setting the ADSRs is a lot trickier than I am accustomed to in other synths for several reasons.
1) The ranges don’t seem to be ideal and the knobs quickly go past the “sweet spots” with little detail in the ranges I tend to favor. The range covered by 0.000 to 0.400 on the knobs would much more usefully be covered by 0.000 to 0.700. Not as much detail is required with really long settings (e.g. 2 seconds or more)I agree with you here. The current formula for the ADR time in millisecs is: 8*x^3. So a max time of 8 seconds, and the knob at 0.5 gives a time of 1 second. I already increased the low end resolution in v0.24, but I can easily increase it further. Changing the formula to 8*x^4 gives a time of 500 millisecs at 0.5. Changing it to 8*x^5 gives 250 ms at 0.5. What seems reasonable to you?
4)Curves/lines used in the envelope scaling by default seem “off”. I haven’t had luck using Shape 1 and Shape 2 in the Mod Matrix to correct this yet. Lots of experiments but no results. Maybe I am missing something obvious though so feel free to help fill in the blanks for me.
Do you mean the “AD Time” modulation targets? They apply a linear scaling of the AD times in milliseconds. If you think a different scaling is more appropriate, please let me know.
Some of my favorites delays are (from the tracker side of things) the Buzz FSM Panzer Delay, Ninja Delay and HD Combo Delay (going from memory a little bit there so bear with me). From the more mainstream side of things, Kjaerhus Classic Delay, Audio Damage Dubstation, Logic Tape Delay and the delay included with the Arturia CS-80v.
The new ADSRs sound much nicer than when I made my post but if you could post (or send) an alpha release that applied a different scaling, especially to release, I have a hunch it might improve the sound. I apologize for not giving a more academic response but I am a little burned out in the brains department from the intensity at the studio the last few days.
The numerical readouts and LFO issues have been addressed beautifully. I have nothing further to add other than kudos.
One note regarding the delay: I know that several people would miss it if it were gone, and I can respect that. For instant gratification or a more unified workflow, having delay settings integrated into the plug-in makes life much easier. As an audio engineer (and an avid reader of many trade magazines from the last 5 years) I can tell you that many professionals have a slightly different criteria for judging FX. If the effect does not significantly add to the sound, then the first thing we usually do is turn it off. Often, when first getting a new synth, we may audition most of the presets dry, regardless of how they were programmed, to get a better sense of the timbre of the synths. Plus, we tend to have a lot of our own favorite FX in our rack.
Professionals and hobbyists alike do have one thing in common, however: we love it when an effect is good enough to become part of the character of a synth’s sound. Think of the chorus on several Juno models or more recently of the delay on the Arturia CS-80v. I often leave that delay turned on because it sounds different to me than many of the others I use in a positive way. The SM default delay does not have much character, as should come as no surprise, so if a delay is left in it should really develop a character so that it is an asset to the synth. Right now, come review or evaluation time by many professionals, the delay is a liability.
One last thing I’d like to add is that the synth is still in an alpha build so I think we are all expecting to have to make significant re-writes to our presets before launch. That’s just what goes with changing the synth to make it better. But I will say that given the current simplicity of the delay, I could probably re-write the settings for a whole bank of presets in less than 10 minutes. I doubt it would take most people much longer either, especially given that we now have a time readout.
In other words, don’t feel to tied down to the current configuration. It’s still early in the game and it’s better to make things high quality in the synth now rather than worry about preserving legacy support for content that is still small in scale and easily re-written.
Just my 2 cents. I think I have neglected to respond to one or more points however so I will start a new post soon. 🙂
Per Lichtman@rinxai wrote:
I have uploaded a bank of 68 presets for Nucleum here.
It is a work in progress, with a full bank of 128 presets to be released as Nucleum progresses.
Many of the presets are best heard by playing and holding notes on a keyboard, since they evolve and change over time….
Imo, Nucleum is a promising generator, with good potential for sculpting impressive and usable sounds.
Performance needs to be optimized, although already improved, especially loading time.
More features I would like to see are lower speed capability for LFOs, and lag/delay for LFO start time, and host sync for LFO and Delay effect.
More waveforms, vintage squares and saws. Ideally would like the option to use external waveforms.
Cheers..
🙂
Nice presets rinxai! And I also agree with all the feedback on the synth itself, save for the fact that I’m still not convinced that the delay should stay without a significant overhaul. I tried using even the free Kjaerhaus Chorus and Delay instead of the ones included in the synth and found the results to be much better. But then, they can’t be saved with the patches…
rinxai, I really enjoyed listening to the presets (especially Organico 2 and Percussive Synth 2) and figured I’d mention my top 10 to help give other users a starting point for sampling them. 🙂
rxi Bass Synth 5
rxi stringthingy1
rxi Brassugar 2
rxi random Pad 2
rxi Gathering 2
rxi synth delta
rxi Organico 2
rxi Percussive Synth 2
rxi Plukbot 2
rxi Plukbot 4
Also, as one preset developer to another, I’d mention that if you have the time (and inclination), there were 2 details that seemed like they could be enhanced: volume consistency between patches and the extent of user control over the sound with MIDI CCs.
Per Lichtman0.25 improved quite a bit over 0.24. Thanks Frits!
The ability to route the filter envelopes to other modulation destination made a big difference in the ability to create swells and other interesting presets and showing the actual time value on ADR dials helps a lot too. Would it be possible to extend the maximum ADR times (say to 20 seconds or at least to 10) without losing the recently acquired detail in the early part of the knob? If not, no worries: they are already much more fun. 🙂 It also made reminded me of something that I had forgotten to mention last time.
-Master Level (Volume) ADSR: I know, there are already several envelopes but here is an issue as I see it. If I am going to tweak the release times of the different oscillators to use them to change the sound of the release, then sometimes I need to have them be longer than the length of the sound itself. If I use them with such long release times while playing a pad right now, then all voices are rapidly eaten up. Also, I can tell you from my early experience with synths that having a master ADSR makes it much easier to design your first patch if you are a newbie, even if you aren’t worrying about the complexities I mentioned. Depending on what is easiest to deal with, it might also be made to only attenuate relative to the current level position just so that the level won’t blast your ears if something goes wrong in the modulation, but that really isn’t necessary.
Sorry for not responding more quickly. We had a very long day at the studio and I wasn’t home until midnight. As far as the chorus, is the pre-delay currently in ms? If so, labeling it would be helpful. Ditto for LFO 1 and 2 speed and the rate on chorus.
Omitting the SM reverb was a very good call from my standpoint. If you read any issue of Computer Music Magazine, they often go on about how they are frustrated by how drenched in FX a lot of presets are (and reverb seems to be the main culprit). Not to mention the fact that SM reverb really isn’t up to quality of other reverbs that almost any user should have in their collection. I haven’t used the reverb that you designed yet, but I have heard very good things about it from others so I am glad that you care about the quality of the fx in the synth.
In terms of pad sounds, what would help a lot (given the fact that you already helped a lot with the last update) would really be if you could set a panning dial below each of the oscillators for filter 1 and 2 so that the oscillators could be panned right before they hit each filter. That’s assuming that each filter has a stereo input. If each filter has a mono input, I suppose that the best that could be done would be to pan the output of each of the mono filters. Right now, Nucleum is really starting to gain strength in creating the timbral evolution of a pad or atmosphere but it can’t create the space of one (at least not without external effects).
In terms of CPU, presently Nucelum is in an reasonable range for most of the patches I’ve come up with and certainly fine against most other SE or SM synths, but not as light as others I’ve worked with. For an FM comparison, on my P4 3.2GHz system, when Toxic III or Linplug Octopus and Nucleum are running (with 3 oscillators, delay and chorus) then playing a 10 note chord with Toxic III and Octopus peak 22-23% CPU and Nucleum peaks at 31%. CPU performance with CS-80v on several patches was similar to that of of Toxic III and Octopus. Vanguard peaked around 19%. Hope that helps give some sense, though I would hope that you aren’t spending to much effort trying to get CPU usage optimized on your first synth. 🙂
I’ve got a few more thoughts but I’ve got to get to a guitar clinic with Kerry King, the guitarist from Slayer. Cheers on the improvements!
Per LichtmanI didn’t get done at the studio until around 10pm tonight so I have only had a couple hours to try out Nucleum 0.24 and start making presets but here are my thoughts so far. [Note, I’m not really comparing this to other more ambitious synths but rather to help give a sense of what Nucleum is in relation to what’s already been stated.}
The good:
– Simple FM interface: the color coding, large central circle and emphasis on knobs works well here. It’s easy to get some interesting results just through experimentation even before you bother to start thinking about what you are doing.
– Multiple waveforms: it’s pretty much a necessity these days with so many FM synths featuring them already (e.g. Toxic, Octopus, etc.) to have more than just sine waves and noise so I’m glad to have a few more here given the emphasis on simplicity.
– Edge to the sound: It’s easy to create sounds that cut and…
– The inclusion of a chorus effect: … the chorus makes it easy to help take some of that edge off or make the sound recede a bit, especially in combination with proper filter settings. I am not about to compare it to other choruses but it works as a tool to help design sounds without distracting, unlike the delay.
-Morphability: The combination of the easy FM setups and the simplicity of using the modulation matrix makes it easy to create setups where multiple parameters are mapped to a single controller for powerful morphing. This is probably my favorite feature so far. You really can do a lot more than just route filter cutoff to CC1 and call it a day.
The less good:
-The delay: I have no idea whether these are the default effects that come with SynthMaker or something of that ilk but I can say that chorus works a lot better than the delay and I’d honestly rather have no delay present than the one that is there. I’ve tried using some of it on my presets and I find myself wanting to use an external delay (basically any other delay) rather than deal with it.
-ADSRs: Setting the ADSRs is a lot trickier than I am accustomed to in other synths for several reasons.
1) The ranges don’t seem to be ideal and the knobs quickly go past the “sweet spots” with little detail in the ranges I tend to favor. The range covered by 0.000 to 0.400 on the knobs would much more usefully be covered by 0.000 to 0.700. Not as much detail is required with really long settings (e.g. 2 seconds or more)
2) Even when using shift to make fine adjustments it is difficult to hone in on the sweet spots.
3)The numerical readouts have no clear scale (not that I don’t encounter that elsewhere sometimes) meaning that time has to be invested initially on trial and error. If there is any way to replace the 0.00 to 1.00 scale with a seconds readout, that would be a big improvement.
4)Curves/lines used in the envelope scaling by default seem “off”. I haven’t had luck using Shape 1 and Shape 2 in the Mod Matrix to correct this yet. Lots of experiments but no results. Maybe I am missing something obvious though so feel free to help fill in the blanks for me. 🙂
-LFOs: Similar issues to ADSRs. Almost unusable at low frequencies though quite fun at high frequenices. More detail at the low end would be great.
Anyway, those are my first impressions. So far, I find bass, leads, sfx and percussion oriented sounds tend to be easier to make than pads with the synth. It doesn’t offer 6-8 osciillators or a unison/detune option and it doesn’t have internal panning options (e.g. for the different voices or as a global modulation destination) so the primary way to make a sound larger is via the chorus effect. Between the FM knobs and the additional modulation routings it’s easy to use one or two of the primary oscillators as an additional LFO with a great deal more complexity than the hardwired ones. This was already demonstrated in the Kinabalu patch that was included with the 0.24 version I downloaded and unexpectedly helps start to get sounds in the directions of a CS-80, making the difficulties creating pad sounds unfortunate (at least at this stage).
I’ll revisit pads later but for now I just wanted to quickly demo my first impressions of the “morphability” aspect of the synth with a couple demonstration presets I ginned up while noodling around with the synth initially. MW = mod wheel (CC1) mapped parameters. EXP = expression pedally (CC11) mapped parameters.
Presets for Nucleum 0.24 (in .txt file format so they can be loaded within the plug-in from any host)
LD The Edge (MW EXP) – PAL
http://download.yousendit.com/2439FC746B09FBDA
BS Dropped This (MW) – PAL.txt
http://download.yousendit.com/1E05E8343DED409D
Frits, please let me know if there is anything I can do to make my feedback more helpful. I’d say the strengths of Nucleum as a freeware synth are the ease with which it can create timbral complexity and its ability to make sounds that are easy to place in a mix or that can cut through to the front. It doesn’t tend to sound very warm naturally (nor is it really meant to) but you can coax a bit of that direction out of it with a lot of chorus and judicious filter use.