The TelenatorWell, I almost didn’t bother to start this thread, because I just knew how this was going to go.
So, we have a free user of Podium saying he doesn’t want to complain or ask for more features. I wouldn’t, either, if I was using someone else’s software without paying for it.
And of course, I believe kim_otcj represents the more basic of DAW users, such as I once was. When I began doing my own music digitally I was delighted just to have some freeware plugin on a track that would make any noise or output any MIDI whatsoever. And my own work was often so sloppy that I would have tossed it all, had there not been a decent MIDI editor to fix my mess. Note here that I have no issue with the current state of the Piano Roll or Drum editors; in fact, since REAPER allows users to go immediately to external editors with one quick click, I have it set so that Podium’s MIDI editors are my primary external editors. Any MIDI track I’m using in REAPER will open instantly on Podium’s editors.
As for the “One-Man Show” argument, I have always acknowledged that and did state that I know what a bit of work it would be to overhaul the plugin use on tracks; however, there are hundreds of other One-Man Shows/creations out there, producing some of finest software at any price — Ichiro Toda with his Synth1, Fuzzpile’s Oatmeal, Bootsy with his impressive collection of top-rated FX . . . The list is almost endless. I’ve never heard any of them or their users fall back on this excuse, and we’re talking about completely free products in these cases. Why is this excuse constantly brought up when discussing Podium?
Since it has come up, and since there is a free version of Podium, how about charging a decent price reflecting more what this DAW is actually worth, then perhaps staff can be added as needed? Or at the very least Frits might be able to justify spending more time improving Podium? We users have no control over these sorts of personal decisions, so always falling back on the ‘one man’ argument doesn’t carry any weight. You make your own bed in this world, and it’s for you to lie in it. If that were applied to Toda or Fuzzpile I suppose we wouldn’t have the same top-rated stuff from them, either. Yes, we might only have some shadow of the great Synth1 or Oatmeal synth we are offered totally free today. And I certainly didn’t come here to tell anyone how to run their business, but this whole situation seems to defy all good business sense. But so be it.
I believe great products ‘sell’ themselves. So, it’s a choice to make. A lot of good products started out very small, with only one or two designers, but they then expanded to meet user demand. Do you want your users having to fall back on using one or two other DAWs or products to get their work done, as Me le suono states? Merely for example, do we have to resort to using the volunteer-made Audacity to render to 16 bits because Podium has no dither yet Audacity and everyone else have very nice ones? What is the point of asking for Feature Requests from users at all, if they are going to be largely ignored?
I now see Podium for what it is, the pretty blonde in my first post here. I’m also beginning to see that there is no point in suggesting any improvements anymore, just as I also note there is very very little user retention here. People come into Podium and this forum and are soon gone for other places. They talk it up big, then quickly disappear. Many seem to hit these imposed limitations, these walls, much faster than I did. I’m also beginning to understand why Podium doesn’t even receive a mention anymore in the many publications’ and websites’ lists of current best recording software. Those of us here who have taken the time to renew and discuss Feature Requests are often met with no response at all from Zynewave when a simple, ‘yes, I will add that’ or ‘no, I can’t fix that’ would have been plenty and appropriate.
I believe, like the blonde I mentioned, I was deceived by Podium’s good looks and didn’t see it for what it actually is — a poor man’s DAW. Also, I was indeed first attracted by the very low price, yet at the same time I’m not hesitant to pay for quality or features. And I know I’m not alone in stating this.
The TelenatorThe TelenatorThe TelenatorThe TelenatorThanks for that bit of information from both of you on the Melda plugins. I may have to look into those again because it has been a while. Even so, and I’m not sure which plugins come in their intro bundle anymore, certain plugins they offer that I remember were outside the bundle were widely known and respected as some of the best for direct application to mastering. I’ve yet to buy any of them, but I’ve been tempted to look into a few.
My current collection is a complete hodge podge that I’ve collected along the way, from some of the best Sir Elliot plugins, on through Stardust, T Sledge and other ‘off-name’ brands. I’ve found several of GVST’s (the ‘jG’ skins are the easiest to deal with) very useful in spots.
I should mention to Chris that if you like those sturdy and simple Classic series, you might want to check out Blue Cat Audio’s free bundle. They are a little more modern and offer a few extra features. I love both series, really. For synths, if you have the standard disk from Computer Music mag, you can try the ZebraCM, which is actually just a ‘mag’ edition of Zebra 1, the original. But I’ve got to say, U-HE’s Diva, although certain hungry presets want to kill my PC(!), to me anyway, is the most awesome-sounding VA synth currently out there commercially. Synths such as Tyrell I use and are ‘ok’, but those were some of his earlier creations. Meanwhile, I really am getting more and more into Zebra2, ever since it has been turning up on movie soundtracks, the Batman movie most notable, of course.
The TelenatorI don’t know about Animoog — I’ve only seen it on an iPad, but Cantor was first demoed to me on what I was sure was some 3 or 4 version of an iPhone. In fact, if you can track down any YouTube posts I wouldn’t be surprised if it was demoed at least some on iPhone there.
After much talk about Cantor regarding its use for microtonalism, I started fooling around with a synth that uses the same, those TET-scales. Then, someone sent me a new article about Cantor, containing a short video in which its inventor was explaining all about it and showing how it worked using an iPhone. Wish I could remember what journal had that story, but it was recent and should be searchable. It was hard to believe what a great job of playing he was doing, hitting those pitches on such a tiny screen.
The TelenatorSounds like a proper mixture of good ears and some rare common sense. Yes, you just rattled off some of my favourite and most-used freeware — I love Oatmeal equally as much as I do Synth1. I can say about the same for the rest you mentioned. Lately, though, I have moved on from that bundle of free Melda plugins. The limitations of the demo nature of them were a hassle from time to time, but what really ended the relationship was their constant prodding to buy their products — I won’t be pushed. However, I will admit that they make two or three plugins which are excellent for mastering and at a not-unreasonable price. Yet as I said, I’d moved on and ended up finding some mastering plugs I like even better.
I’ve made an even more important shift of late, too. Liking to work with freeware whenever I’m able — and enjoying the thrill of out-engineering many others who have spend several thousands on DAW and software of great cost — I have recently opened to the idea of actually buying some myself. Regarding this, I’ve purchased both U-HE’s Zebra2 and the most wonderful VA synth I have ever heard — U-HE’s latest upgrade to the Diva. I’ll never leave an instrument such as Oatmeal behind, but it seemed time to reward my hard work and also acquire a new sound or two that I couldn’t completely capture in freeware — at least not easily. I’ve got a short list of a few more planned but certainly will not be overdoing it.
Chris, I wanted to say — I added Sonatina recently as well, though right now it is only slated for an upcoming project. Meanwhile, I’ve been using one by DSK to sim the orchestra sound.
I also wanted to mention that I’ve only had a couple of minutes to hear your latest you’ve posted about here. But I have the link and when I can sit still for an hour I plan to gave it a good going over. I did like what I’ve heard so far. Perhaps your future is in doing movie scores! I can hardly wait to listen from start to finish.
The TelenatorAlthough I’m not interested in having a pad, other than perhaps as an expensive toy for my experimenting, for those who are much more serious than I — the paradigm shift is indeed starting to take place.
Animoog is a simply fantastic instrument for iPad. And if you haven’t already, you must check out what is going on with Cantor (which happens to work quite well on an iPhone too)!
Regarding pads as controllers, I’ve tested this some in the studio and had, until recently, a friend working on it intensely. While the iPad certainly works in this capacity and ought to be fine for most home use, in speed it lags far behind the the better dedicated controllers. I expect this to change before too long. This wouldn’t be acceptable for most pro studio use. Also, last I checked, there wasn’t anything being discussed for VCO automation control in iPad. This could have been added already somewhere.
The discussion here has focused on the iPad. This is a good thing, because any pads employing anything Android have severe issues (latency perhaps the biggest) that will take intense efforts to resolve. Regarding the Win8 (and dismissing anything to do with Metro), some of the current testing has looked rather positive, with modest processing savings and some promise for audio use. Of course, the minute I say that someone yet unheard from pops up on the scene announcing poor results. Hard to know who to believe, but we will find out soon enough now.
The TelenatorLion wrote:
“I’ve never had any real *problems* with Podium, more like small issues with certain lack of features that don’t really make or break a DAW program for me.”
Without both users being extremely familiar with the needs and uses the other is making of the software, this may be no better than comparing apples to oranges.
This sort of reminds me, too, of the ones who write into a forum stating how they are having big troubles with some plugin or other software. In every case, before too long, someone will always respond by writing in response, “Gee, I’m not having any troubles with GoofyPlug VST at all!”
Not trying to point any fingers here, but the GoofyPlug quote I just posted seems to me both an insult and also an ignorance. The poster is assuming that since it works fine for him then it must be fine for the OP? The poster is suggesting the OP is misusing this GoofyPlug? The poster is calling the OP a liar?
Who can say what the poster’s intentions were, but one thing is certain: It doesn’t make GoofyPlug suddenly function better or fix the OP’s issues with the plugin. Yet you’ll see this response every stinking time.
In my own case and experience with Podium, I came to home use in DAWs in general after losing a perk which consisted of much regular free studio time. I was the Editor for quite a while of a regional music magazine, and my publisher owned a top studio also. When it came time to make a change, that perk went with it. So, knowing Cubase and Pro Tools from there and other studios, my expectations and demands are quite high and occasionally unforgiving.
But the bottom line is in this direction: I am not using Podium like many users here do — as not much more than a cheap cassette recorder, though in digital now. However, neither am I demanding Frits install full VCO slider automation control, just because all $100k recording desks have them and, nowadays, so does Sequoia and Pro Tools.
I’m making full professional use of the software I employ, a good deal more demanding and different than your weekend hobbyist. I don’t know all about michi’s frustrations, but I know they did exist, but my own issues with Podium come from the distinct fact that certain features it should have added by now — and ones that the other 99 do offer — are relatively easy upgrades. They really need to happen and reasonably soon.
What has greatly added to my own frustration with this recently is that, where the Zynewave Homepage claims that upgrades and development are “user-driven,” yet lately we users have not been included in the process. Our Feature Request lists have remained largely the same and unfulfilled, and communication with Zynewave has been rather minimal. Apparently, our needs have been shelved or overlooked and meanwhile Frits seems to be spending any DEV time on features no users requested. So, in a sense, I personally have been rather pissed, being doubly burned through this experience, dismayed and rather confused regarding what’s happening here.
The Telenatorout wrote:
“Fair enough. Do what works best for you.”
Ultimately, I think THIS is all that the whole ‘to PAD or not to PAD’ comes down to. Personally, I’ve always said and felt that these pads were ‘solutions looking for a problem.’ I know computers, computing, software and their relationship to music well enough to understand that, whether there are advantages or disadvantages, whether someone offers all manner of rationales, this ‘pad thing’ is really nothing but a personal choice.
Sure, there are lots of reasons lurking behind all this — and many of them perhaps rather different than a lot of people might guess. In the end, if somebody thinks he needs to get a pad, then it will be a pad, unless something new comes along and influences.
However, I will say, based on digital audio criteria alone (as the basis truly ought to be), I see a fair amount of hassles and troubles ahead, and it looks like that won’t be likely to change anytime soon.
Enjoy Your PAD.
The TelenatorAre you forgetting? The whole touch screen thing has been going on for quite a few years now. It is (or was) most available and most employed on laptops, so if you were meaning this as a unique advantage of pads, then this is completely untrue. If you also meant it as some justification of pads, obviously that would be incorrect, too.
As very many have pointed out through thiese whole weeks-long pad discussions, my hands are often a sweaty mess when using a DAW, since I’ve often just come off working my guitars. There is NO WAY I am putting my greasy prints all over my screen when I’m working. Others, and many not guitarists, have said precisely the same. Ideally, I like my screens clear as crystal and spotless, so I can ‘feel’ less messy and to see all the detail. I really don’t need to fiddle with zooming things with my fingers; the regular tools and the seeming hundreds of shortcuts for every little sneeze or whine these days are more than enough.
Perhaps there is some other reason why pads are all the rage for digital music, if indeed they actually are, although we can dismiss storage space as a help. Once the OS and needed software for DAWs and plugs goes in, there isn’t a lot left, even if you are fortunate to have installed an SSD. I think, on a heavy project, you will only have space for IT and that will be all. I can use 30-40 gigs on one only, once I’ve been rolling and before the final edits.
The Telenatorarkmabat,
Thanks for that. I’ve done precisely that setup before with Bome’s Mouse Keyboard and got rather bad results. But I’ll try again with this new-to-me keyboard. Also, Podium tends to ‘freak out’ with anything else in focus on the desktop. Even though I did buy a hardware keys, I want the functionality of a virtual kb, if for no other reason than almost every respectable DAW has one now, and they do come in handy when in a hurry. We’ll see . .
Thanks for info on ASIO4ALL, too! Yes, it was an issue in the audio on most soundcards, mine included, though the rest worked swell. Can’t wait to look into this.
Cheers!
Tele
The TelenatorDid I miss something? A new post perhaps? Podium will be ready for a PAD this fall? It will run on everything to do with Win8 — this means including ARM and Metro? This will all be something to see. I may be overly cautious, but considering the number of changes needed, and a big fat compile or two, I’d be surprised if it is any earlier than late spring 2013 that Podium runs on a Win8-equipped pad.
Respectfully, I have to disagree with Frits about how big pads will be. There are still healthy numbers using desktops and Vista, although less each few years. Could it be that some of us actually prefer laptops? I’d really like to know if most people think pads are the best thng since sliced bread. Sales of iPad seem to be more flat recently.
Time Traveler, I keep asking around but never receive any intelligent answer. Okay, then, so off to record reggae. Please tell me why a pad is needed to do this. Why would a good laptop be any less able to go mobile? And with its far greater storage for all those big reggae WAV files, it would do a much better job of it? Nobody can explain why a pad is supposedly such/any advantage or so necessary.
My best laptop is just under 5 pounds, 500 Gb of disk space, a 15.5 screen which is not too big and ungainly (makes for easy viewing in HD besides), and closed it is under an inch thick. In its soft case it fits in any knapsack or, gee whiz, right under my arm carried! I’m still thinking this pad thing is just a fad. My trusty laptop is plenty mobile and portable.
So, can you explain what feature(s) of pads makes them so much better? Again, what am I missing in all of this almost lemming-like behavior I’m seeing here and there?
The TelenatorBefore I went out a bought a controller keyboard, I tried for ages to make the virtual MIDI keyboard setup work with zero results. Sometimes a total freeze. sometimes the keyboard won’t load. Worse of all, when I did get one to load, I could record MIDI tracks but had no plugin to create sound to monitor, since the keyboard was taking up the plugin slot on the track and Podium will not accept a second plug. Running in from keyboard on desktop, I always had issues with Podium having a fit because the keyboard was on the screen, even though technically outside the host and shouldn’t be subject to Podium’s control and touchiness.
I tried loading the keyboard from outside via MidiYoke with not much better results. I think the keyboard you have linked here is the only one I never came across in my trials. Are you routing via MidiYoke cables from the keyboard on desktop? Or just how are you doing it? Many, and formerly including myself, badly wanted this ability. Could you give details to your setup?
As for the other, check to be sure these MidiYoke cables and that yoke installation is not interfering with your audio connection. Then check to make sure you don’t have the PC’s internal GM synth connected in Podium’s Audio & MIDI setup pages. That can often foul up audio inputs in Podium.
The TelenatorIs this going to be one of those deals where you post a new thread every so often saying you are leaving, but three weeks later you are still saying you are leaving? In fact, haven’t you said your fair thee wells at least once or twice before? I could be mistaken here. I know for a fact some member or two was wrapped up in long goodbyes. Every week it is/was “I’m outta here!!!”
My way of dealing with difficult software that still has potential but clearly needs some modifications to bring it up to par is that I’ll relegate it to reduced service and meanwhile complain an awful lot. By the time I’m done driving home my very reasonable requests, they will be overjoyed that they finally fixed the problem so I would shut up. I’ve been relying on REAPER much more recently because of Podium’s dodgy situation with routing limitations on plugins. Now, I don’t expect Podium to become the ‘routing heaven’ of REAPER, and I did appreciate the recent grooming and fine-tuning it got regarding its MIDI editor.
My big issue remaining with Podium, now that I finally caved and bought a decent controller keyboard, is the very second-rate routing. There are quite a few good plugins that are hobbled or unusable in Podium. All the cool Fretted Synth plugin effects, like many others, have a MIDI as well as audio output on their effect, meaning that any electrified instrument you plug into them — think guitar here — can actually record MIDI lines as well as the regular processed audio sound. It works like a charm in REAPER, but Podium won’t allow it. It won’t accept virtual keyboards either, which resulted in costing me $200 just so I could make ANY MIDI at all in Podium. Really, the limitations are beyond annoying, and I lost a lot of producing time trying to make workarounds that were fruitless, too.
I want Podium to accept and record ANY plugin output from either FX or instrument and not behave so stiffly. Even the guide talks about handling both audio and MIDI from one plugin, and goes on and on about multitimbrel plugs, but it is weak and difficult in the realtime application of it. I’m not asking for ‘pie in the sky’ routing here, I just want full use of all of today’s popular plugins. Podium won’t take Wusik, Phrazor or practically any sequencer that needs a plugin placed in front of it to generate FX and or sound. I want to be able to use more than one plug on a track. This whole “Source” thing needs to go — INs and OUTs only, please, and chaining like everyone else. If a choice, I will tell it whether I want the audio or MIDI recorded — or both, one on one track, one on a neighbor This child track business only goes maybe halfway in this direction. No matter what I try, I end up marooned and frustrated. It’s inexcusable because I’m talking minor upgrades here. A good shuffling. A routing FIX.
In the end, I can’t blame anyone for bailing. I see it over and over — lots of early enthusiasm, then BANG, head hits a wall due to the discovery that Podium won’t let them use some of their favorite VSTs ’cause there is no way to hook them up, or some other standard DAW use is a no-go. There are a couple of other issues I’ve mentioned before, too, but pretty soon the new user is gone, not to be heard from again. The saddest part is there are only a small few things that need a fix to make Podium as good as any other. But once people move on, that’s it — THEY GONE.
Best Wishes, michi!