druid.
koalaboyHi,
Apologies if I’ve missed something previously – I did a search, but didn’t really find much.
Is there going to be a 64-bit version of Podium (or have I already missed an existing one !), and will there be any attempts to allow it to include 32-bit VSTs in the way Sonar does ?
Thanks,
Michael.
ZynewaveThere most likely will be a 64-bit version of Podium at some point. At the moment though I see no need to devote development time on it, until 64-bit Windows gains a larger marketshare. Users have reported that Podium runs fine under 64-bit Windows.
koalaboyJust as an aside here, perhaps you could look to integrate jbridge (http://jstuff.wordpress.com/jbridge/) into Podium.
It already allows 64-bit plugins in 32-bit hosts but I believe Cantabile has integrated it such that it’s more streamlined and almost seamless to the user.
Obviously, there may be business/licensing reasons why this can’t be done, but I thought it worth mentioning in case it help – or in case it stimulates you towards your own solution 😉
I’m using this at the moment for running Melodyne inside Sonar 64, for example and will be trying it inside Podium shortly (just rebuilt a new machine).
ZynewaveInteresting. If this product becomes a success, I won’t have to make my own bit-bridge implementation when I start working on a Podium x64 version.
koalaboy@Zynewave wrote:
Interesting. If this product becomes a success, I won’t have to make my own bit-bridge implementation when I start working on a Podium x64 version.
It certainly does the job for most instances when it works. The major downside is it uses seperate processes (obviously really) and so they don’t integrate quite as well by default.
I haven’t tried the cantabile implementation, but ideally Podium could integrate to the extent that when an unsupported dll (32 or 64 bit either way) was selected, it would automatically launch the jbridge version and also keep track of the new process so that it could control the outside process window in place of the normal VST window.
This would make it pretty much seamless and remove the last quirk.
It does seem to work very well though, and hopefully it will allow me to use the current podium with my 64bit VSTs.
Of course, it also means that any 32bit VSTs, if launched this way, have access to their own memory and process space, so that those of us with a lot more memory can utilise it a bit better.
I registered a copy as soon as I saw it, as it really solves a problem.
Conquistador@koalaboy wrote:
Is there going to be a 64-bit version of Podium .
I think the time has come to bring the development of a native x64 version of Podium back to the Zynewave discussion table… 🙂
There most likely will be a 64-bit version of Podium at some point. At the moment though I see no need to devote development time on it, until 64-bit Windows gains a larger marketshare. Users have reported that Podium runs fine under 64-bit Windows.
I would have agreed with this half a year ago but things have really changed now Frits.
Of course as you know I have been using Podium on Vista x64, but I have also *not* been able to get past the memory limitations of running an x86 app on an x64 OS. 2GB only for an x86 app. 4GB if the application is LAA which I am pretty sure Podium is not (correct me if I am wrong).
Podium must be run in the WoW64 emulation layer which, can make x86 applications run slower than they would on an x86 OS. 🙁
Also most of my memory is simply not *seen* by Podium. Other benefits at CPU level will also not be used by Podum.
As you can see from the info below the x64 landsacape has changed considerably in the last 6 – 9 months. That is probably putting it mildly.
Comprehensive native x64 support now exists for both software and hardware.
Take a look…
HARDWARE
M- Audio: about 40 products now have x64 drivers
Edirol:
Various Firewire and USB interfaces. FA-66, UA-25 e.t.c
RME:
Hammerfall DPS series
Fireface 400/800
Echo Audio
Audio Fire, Gina e.t.c (AFAICT there entire product line)
I have used the dedicated x64 AudioFire 4 driver for over a year on Vista x64
There could be many other hardware vendors with x64 drivers already.
SOFTWARE Out of Beta (Full releases)
Hosts
Darkwave Studio (Free)
Cantabile 2
Reaper 3
Steinberg Cubase 5 Nuendo4
Cakewak Sonar 6,7,8
Synapse Orion 7
N Track Studio
FMod Ex
Bidule
Sonay Vegas 8.1 and 9
FX
Voxengo:
(Various) at least 13 native x64 plugins Elephant 3, Voxformer 2, Crunchessor 2 e.t.c
Line 6:
Gear Box
Pod Farm
NI
Guitar Rig
Izotope
Ozone 3 and 4
Spectron
Trash
RX (Restoration Suite)
Vinyl (Free)
Instruments
NI
Maschine
Kontakt 3.5
EMU
Emulator x3
Synapse
(5 Instruments)
4Front
True Pianos
Cakewalk
Rapture
z3ta+
Dimension Pro
Studio instruments (Drum Kit, Bass Guitar, Electric Piano, and Strings)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 3
Garritan
Aria
Steinberg
The Grand 3
Halion 3.5
East West Play Products
(Various)
Motu
BPM
Official site
An excellent You Tube overview video
Vienna Symphonic Library
Lennar digital
Sylenth v.2.2
Spectrasonics
Stylus RMX 1.8
Vember Audio
Surge
Nusfoting
Da Hornet
Still in Beta
Instruments
Spectrasonics
Trillan (x64 version out within a few months)
Omnisphere (x64 version later this year)
NI
Battery
FX
SIR 2
PSP (Lexicon 43,84)
Going forward…
Windows 7
If you do want to try a free Windows x64 version why not download the free (and incredibly stable) Windows 7 x64 version?
1.You can use a single activation key for up to 3 PC’s
2. The Version is a Release candidate and will not expire until June 2010 next year.
3. Windows 7 appears to be very popular amongst musicians and other consumers who see it as a much better version of Vista. There have been reports of lower latency being achieved with Windows 7 compared to Vista but I do think those changes made their way into Vista SP2 as it is a definite improvement over SP1.
4. You can download the free RC version of Windows 7 either as an x64 or x86 version. Nothing stopping you from downloading both of course.
5. A 60gb or more partition should be fine for the x64 version of Windows 7.
6. What about driver and software support as Windows 7 will not be released until October later this year…?
Windows 7 has a very effective IMO and easy to use compatibility mode that you can optionally access (from a rght click menu) before you even install your software.
Easy. You get various OS options to choose from to support. Follow the prompts very easy. My Edirol Ua-25 installed this way without issues.
Of course the x64 version of Vista is also still available (but not free of course).
Thoughts?
koalaboyAfter several experiments over the last few months, I’d really just like to see some very close integration with (or a Frits-special version of) the jBridge idea.
Keep Podium at 32bit, but allow plugins to be managed as seperate processes, either 32bit or 64bit – it wouldn’t matter.
I realise there are technical issues about window management, but if Podium could effectively treat plugins (or maybe just specified plugins ?) as a seperate process but still keep their window under its own control, it would solve all of the problems.
This could also open the door to network FX processing, similar to that seen in Reaper, etc.
The big problem with 64bit is the lack of compatiblity with VST plugins – yes, I know many more are coming on board but there are a LOT more that aren’t and never will, and it would be unfortunate to lose them on a 64bit system.
Ideally, I want to be able to host Kontak 64bit, and also some free 32bit VSTs that I like the sound of.
An Alternative could maybe be two versions of Podium, with the ability for them to be completely in sync, share the outputs, and also synchronised project load. This may be easier than the plugin processes, but I don’t know.
I have plenty of ideas, but they don’t necessarily gain anything 😆
ConquistadorHi koalaboy 🙂
Ultimately it boils down to Podium keeping up (in this area) with other hosts. Without a huge marketing budget features like x64 can add to the overall value of Podium. Leaving Podium as an x86 app for too long (talk less of pemanently) is IMO a very bad idea. Clearly Podium has plenty of catching up to do in this area already.
That gap will increase over time as more software devs with offerings similar to Podium add x64 support to their hosts. There are not many left frankly. I think even Magix have an x64 beta for Samplitude now. Magix of course have more than a few products near Podiums price point.
It might be tomorrow or two years (or more) from now but Podium will have to step up to compete with other hosts in this area at some point. It is being left behind already.
Of course Podium does not have to add every single feature other hosts have but this is quite different IMO as we are talking supporting an OS which many other host, FX, instrument and hardware developers have already embraced.
I think Frits does have to carefully choose where it is best to compete with other hosts and I think he has done a great job so far. The need for x64 support will not fade away though, it will only become even more pressing as time goes on.
It is strange in a way as Podium is ahead of many if not all hosts when it comes to Processor support (32 apparently) but is behind many other hosts when it comes to native x64 support (hosts above, within and below Podiums price point).
Whatever our personal preferrences are Podium must continue to compete with other hosts. It does already and very well, but it is behind in this area (at the moment). 😉
koalaboyI know what you’re saying – it’s just in practice I haven’t actually found 64bit to be that worthwhile within a single music app.
Sure, if you’re loading huge samples *in the host* directly into RAM, but the chances are you’ll use a software sampler which needs to be 64bit – Podium just has to be able to use it.
I have Sonar 64bit, which works great, and I believe Cubase isn’t too bad on 64bit (but more compatiblity problems), but my main host, Live, is only 32bit and doesn’t really suffer for it either.
Whilst I would love everything to be 64bit, I think it’s more important to solve the problems that most people will have, and that’s likely to be one or two plugins needing to be 64bit due to memory usage – if this can be achieved sooner in a different fashion, it’s good.
I’d much rather workaround hosting a couple of high-memory plugins in a 32bit host, than the vast majority of ‘old’ plugins in a 64bit host (which is why I rarely use Reaper64).
The main plugins I couldn’t ‘live without’ are UAD, and they’re not 64bit anyway.
There’s also the issue of ReWire, which doesn’t work under 64bit I think.
Don’t get me wrong, 64bit is vital in some areas (3D rendering is great with so much memory) but there’s also a lot of “the right tool for the job” to think about.
I personally think that Podium has enough to help it ‘keep up’ as it is, without having to go 64bit, especially in the price range – after all, I bought it because I like the way it does the job.
Conquistador@koalaboy wrote:
Whilst I would love everything to be 64bit, I think it’s more important to solve the problems that most people will have, and that’s likely to be one or two plugins needing to be 64bit due to memory usage – if this can be achieved sooner in a different fashion, it’s good.
There should be no need to choose between a fully native x64 version of Podium and some way to use x86 plugs inside it. As there are clearly related issues I would assume they would surely be considered for implementation at the same time anyway.
There’s also the issue of ReWire, which doesn’t work under 64bit I think.
A Propellerhead issue. This clearly (and thankfully) has not stopped all the other hosts I listed from moving on with x64 support.
I personally think that Podium has enough to help it ‘keep up’ as it is, without having to go 64bit, especially in the price range – after all, I bought it because I like the way it does the job.
Clearly yes there is plenty to keep any user busy with Podium and indeed IMO it competes very well with other hosts. Just not within the x64 arena. Yet.
In any case we can have the best of both worlds as there is no reason why Podium cannot have two versions. x86 and x64. Any user can simply install the version that suits their needs and supports their platform. That is probably the best way forward and has been offered by other devs already. 🙂
ZynewaveWhen Windows 7 is released (est. end of 2009) I’ll probably treat myself to a new PC with Win7 64 bit preinstalled. At that point I’ll start working on a 64 bit version of Podium. Until then I think my time is better spent on working on Podium features.
Conquistador@Zynewave wrote:
When Windows 7 is released (est. end of 2009) I’ll probably treat myself to a new PC with Win7 64 bit preinstalled. At that point I’ll start working on a 64 bit version of Podium. Until then I think my time is better spent on working on Podium features.
That is probably the best way. While the RC is fully functional until June next year, the full version of Windows 7 (or indeed any Windows version)of course is an even better testing environment for development work. Looking forward to it. 8)
druidThough I am but one person, I may be one of many people who, more than usual when Windows is updated, am waiting for Windows 7. I am looking forward to it enough that I’m looking at buying a new computer at the end of the year, complete with Windows 7. I have been slow to move to any newer platform my entire life. Windows XP itself I refused until SP2.
Windows 7 might just change that. I like (more or less) the moves Microsoft have made with it so far; it looks more polished and the open beta and release candidate idea has me convinced it will be a better product for it. Microsoft would have to do something pretty bad (or have had done something and then it come out into public) for me to change my mind currently.
What I’m trying to convey is that I think more people than usual are looking forward to this release, and that may well be the right time to take the newer platforms (in this case, regarding 64-bit) seriously. My new system I plan having 6gb of RAM, or at least 4gb, and so I would need the 64-bit support to get proper use from it. And I feel that it’s getting to the point in time that a large enough portion of Windows users will be doing similar things that it would start becoming standard rather than luxury.
koalaboyI must admit, I’m doing my best to move to OSX.
Even with their ’32bit’ OS, you can see more than 4GB of RAM (I have 12 at the moment) which solves the compatibility issue from the start.
Also, you don’t then have the idiocy of “Program Files”, “Program Files (x86)” and “Program Data”.
I’d hoped Windows7 would convince me, but they haven’t solved much of anything, and still insist on removing control from the user.
I’ll take to running Podium in VMWare once I achieve my goal 😀
druidSee more than 4gb, or USE more than 4gb (simplified)? If the operating system is truly 32-bit, then you shouldn’t be able to use more than 4gb, and applications as I understand it shouldn’t be able to use more than 2gb. That may not limit some people (not me either!) but merely being able to see what you really have in your system, but not be able to use it, is sort of pointless as far as I’m concerned.