acousmod.
KlempererThat’s a very interesting thread, I just found it. As a beginner many weeks ago I didn’t ask (because I thought I’d find out myself like with many other things) as my laptop has a Edirol-UA25 card and the crappy inbuilt-soundcard, and I ran into the same problems. Although – like many amongst us – I am constantly trying out good freeware and some demos, so all of these things would be VERY important for me too.
Conquistador@Klemperer wrote:
That’s a very interesting thread, I just found it. As a beginner many weeks ago I didn’t ask (because I thought I’d find out myself like with many other things) as my laptop has a Edirol-UA25 card and the crappy inbuilt-soundcard, and I ran into the same problems. Although – like many amongst us – I am constantly trying out good freeware and some demos, so all of these things would be VERY important for me too.
Yes this caught me out as well. Sadly it is a major issue for me. The more projects you start, the more work you give yourself if you change your VST folder layouts, plugins or Audio hardware. It is IMO clearly an unforseen problem for Frits and I would not classify it as a bug (not saying you or anyone else thinks it is) but it is most certainly a design aspect of Podium that is a BIG problem right now, for me.
It has been particularly frustrating because I love the direction that everything else is going in. Arrrrrrrrggghghghghh 😕 😡
Post 2.0 is the timeframe Frtis gave which is potentially months away but I understand he has his hands full with other things and must try and finish those things first. It just means between now and the appearance of a modification to this area of Podium, it is not feasible for me to start new projects in Podium.
I must have automapping of missing VST’s and new hardware in place first. There is no point in me hassling Frits for the feature because of my own deadlines (that would be silly) but…I must see automapping (standard eveywhere else) in Podium before returning to a large number of Podium projects.
By that time it will be a few clicks probably or less to adress those issues. I can wait until post 2.0. To be fair to Frits IMO he would have already adressed this earlier if he knew how much a problem it would turn out to be. 🙁
Klemperer@Conquistador wrote:
Sadly it is a major issue for me. The more projects you start, the work you give yourself if you change your VST folder layouts, plugins or Audio hardware. It is IMO clearly an unforseen problem for Frits and I would not classify it as a bug (not saying you or anyone else thinks it is) but it is most certainly a design aspect of Podium that is a BIG problem right now for me.
It has been particularly frustrating because I love the direction that everything else is going in. Arrrrrrrrggghghghghh 😕 😡
I must have automapping of missing VST’s and new hardware in place first. There is no point in me hassling Frits for the feature because of my own deadlines (that would be silly) but…I must see automapping (standard eveywhere else) in Podium before returning to a large number of Podium projects.
By that time it will be a few clicks probably or less to adress those issues. I can wait until post 2.0. To be fair to Frits IMO he would have already adressed this earlier if he knew how much a problem it would turn out to be. 🙁
Very understandable!
I don’t force anyone too to do this or that :). Even more than you because I am no “in depth user” up to now, for this Podium is too different from the hosts I used before.
I prefer own solutions, and my solution now was to delete Podium from the laptop (which is rarely used for music, just if I’m away for weeks or so).
And for trying new plugs on my main PC I use another host now and keep Podium with the “standard stuff” unchanged. Still, it is a problem, and I fully agree to you here.
I understand that automapping is the first thing people would wish in the future, and so would I.
As usual a workaround, one I not use now, is (I repeat myself here a bit 😀 ) to load EnergyXT1.4 as a vst or vsti into Podium. EXT has its own vst-paths, and is always up to date with them, so owners or demoists of EXT can easily test or use new plugs inside Podium *that* way. By the way, I remember you own EXT1 too – would that be a workaround for you, to well, put all the new ones you need into XT like in a wrapper-thing and mangle it from there?
This workaround, by the way, is something a lot of users did since months out of a different reason, whichever host they use – just to keep the vst-folders uncluttered. They load EXT with a different paths for all those new nice things and test them. You can setup more than 2 paths there if you want, calling one “demos” or whatever.
I understand that Podium is made with different thoughts than some other hosts, and often this is a good thing. Maybe in these 2 points it is no good thing, so it might be changed whenever Frits will find the time! We’ll see. For me working at the laptop it was a major thing too (soundcard AND automapping), so well, no big thing to wait until it is better, and use another host.
Conquistador@Klemperer wrote:
This workaround, by the way, is something a lot of users did since months out of a different reason, whichever host they use – just to keep the vst-folders uncluttered. They load EXT with a different paths for all those new nice things and test them. You can setup more than 2 paths there if you want, calling one “demos” or whatever.
LOL! You know what Klemperer I tried it but some of my VST plugs were just simply not picked up by EXT’s scanner. No idea why.
So I am back to square one. I would like to try EXT2 but it still looks like a beta to me. The confusing message that was sent out (by releasing it in a very unfinished state) makes me very reluctant try that option at this point. But yes EXT was my first idea for a work around as well.
The other was Phrazor but now amazingly that project is dead now. Holger now works for NI apparently so his ideas will likely surface in Kore 3 (Kore is similar to Phrazor anyway) It was the only plug that Sugarbytes did not take from Sonicbytes in the recent takeover. ERA, Gat’r e.t.c all went to Sugarbytes.
soundquist@Conquistador wrote:
The more projects you start, the more work you give yourself if you change your VST folder layouts, plugins or Audio hardware. It is IMO clearly an unforseen problem for Frits and I would not classify it as a bug (not saying you or anyone else thinks it is) but it is most certainly a design aspect of Podium that is a BIG problem right now, for me.
Thanks for starting this thread, Conquistador. All the things you discuss here are things that more or less have put a brake on the use of Podium for me. Until now I have put it down to my own lack of knowledge of how Podium works, but thanks to your thread I see that it is perhaps not that simple.
I too have made changes to my hardware and VST setup, and just couldn’t see how to adapt the existing Podium projects in an easy way.
Podium has so many very attractive strong features but for me the handling of devices, mappings, plugins, and the multitude of list panels and what they do and how they interact has been a far larger problem than the much debated hierarchical (spelling?) track structure.
This is not written in the spirit of negativism but rather to make the developer aware of what goes on in the mind of this particular user of average intelligence. 🙂
Podium is a great music software and I’m proud owner of the license, supporting the project.
/SQ
Conquistador@soundquist wrote:
Thanks for starting this thread, Conquistador. All the things you discuss here are things that more or less have put a brake on the use of Podium for me. Until now I have put it down to my own lack of knowledge of how Podium works, but thanks to your thread I see that it is perhaps not that simple.
I spent a good deal of time thinking of how I might have missed a simple step myself before starting this thread some months back (to avoid wasting Frits time) but it soon became obvious that Podium just did not have any automapping feature as other hosts do.
I too have made changes to my hardware and VST setup, and just couldn’t see how to adapt the existing Podium projects in an easy way.
Exactly my problem.
Podium has so many very attractive strong features
Agreed, amazingly bug free, highly reliable, runs so well (on Vista even) and it’s quad core performance is simply great. It just adds to the frustration sadly when I then look at the Devices: column and see that same problem staring back at me in so many of my Podium projects.
but for me the handling of devices, mappings, plugins, and the multitude of list panels and what they do and how they interact has been a far larger problem than the much debated hierarchical (spelling?) track structure.
To be fair (you may not know this) Frits has really put a huge amount of effort to address issues like that over the years (bit by bit)…hopefully in 1.95 things will be much easier.
This is not written in the spirit of negativism but rather to make the developer aware of what goes on in the mind of this particular user of average intelligence. 🙂
🙂 He he, same here…this thread was started simply to make Frits aware of the problem, I think he knows we are only trying to help make Podium a better application. No one has been ranting on this thread and I think everyone has got their point across in a sensibile and polite way.
Podium is a great music software and I’m proud owner of the license, supporting the project.
You, me and the rest of us…SQ 😉
soundquist@Conquistador wrote:
To be fair (you may not know this) Frits has really put a huge amount of effort to address issues like that over the years (bit by bit)
No, I wasn’t aware of that. Sorry if I spoke out of line there.
/SQ
Conquistador@soundquist wrote:
@Conquistador wrote:
To be fair (you may not know this) Frits has really put a huge amount of effort to address issues like that over the years (bit by bit)
No, I wasn’t aware of that. Sorry if I spoke out of line there.
/SQ
No not even nearly out of line 🙂 , I just thought you surely could not be expected to know some of the past efforts Frits had made to address issues with Podiums track structure (before you bought Podium) so as a result I just thought I would give you some idea of the efforts Frits had made on simplifying things before you joined us here.
But of course more required changes to how tracks are viewed and managed are on the way…in 1.95 (I think)…hopefully a VST and audio hardware automapping solution will also surface once 2.0 is out of the door.
ConquistadorPerhaps this idea will simpify implementation of automapping in Podium…
If there are missing plugs or hardware Podium could allow a user to scan for new hardware and scan a new folder or folders for VST plugs…this time (for the plugins) it could allow a user to import plugs even if they are already present (missing or not).
Podium could simply have a pop up box ask if a user wants to replace existing mappings with the new mapppings once it detects a duplicate mapping.
Right now Podium does not allow a duplicate mappping to be imported (Not on Vista and likely XP). So we are stuck with older layouts and unwanted plugs (unless they are manually deleted).
Letting a user replace any existing mappings (missing and highlighted in red) with new ones that follow a new layout (Podium even now will import a new layout) should in theory solve the hardware and VST plugin automapping issue.
Why?
Well if my RMX, Classic chorus, compressor and Phazor mappings are now red because I moved the dlls to a new location / layout then as things stand now I could us the “search for missing plugins command” to get them. But the new layout will not happen. Podium will also not import a duplicate plug (AFAICT).
With the “replace” suggestion above…any number of missing plugs will bring up a confirmation box that asks a user if they want to replace the existing mappings with new ones.
That will restore the mappings on tracks in an arrangement (automatically) it has to work as using the Search for missing plugins works the exact same way, it finds missing plugs and once found (or replaced using this new idea) that automaps them to an arrangement with those mappings.
Also a tick box could be added to the confirmation box on import of VST plugs using the Import plugs from folder command, to let us delete the older VST layout as well and keep a new one. Of course any existing mappings will be replaced as well.
What about hardware?
Podium already ‘knows’ new hardware is present (MIDI/Audio Interfaces > Audio driver type). The drop down Menu will already show any new device.
So how can that info reach the Devices: column?
Two ways…
1.Until a user clicks on the Asio inteface drop down box and then clicks Apply Podium does not register or see the interface properly.
Frits can that Apply command extend to the Devices: Menu by also auto deleting any older missing interfaces and “replace” (like the VST’s) any older hardware mappings with new one?
2. When you start a new project you have to select your MIDI / and audio interface…it is the exact same MIDI/Audio Interfaces options as above that you have to go through to select your hardware. When you start a new project Podium uses this info to create the hardware mappings. Can this creation process for hardware mappings be made available to a user as an additional Device: menu command?
Import new hardware?
It will then (as with the plugs) confrim with a user if he wants to delete the older hardware mapping and replace it with a new set of mappings .
Both replace options for VST’s and hardware should be global as well as per project . Even per project would be a start.
I know this issue has been brought up before but as user feedback is encouraged and you cannot be expected to think of every solution hopefully this approach might make it easier for you to implement when you can.
Does this help?
ConquistadorI did not want to sidetrack Acousmods thread and I think it is good for new users to see how the this problem has been solved (it certainly looks like it in P2.00)…
@Zynewave wrote:
The merge command will import the project into the current project and search the current project for mappings that match those in the imported project. If matches are found Podium will delete the device mappings in the imported project and replace the assignments on the tracks with the matched mappings in the current project.
That looks like a sweet solution for automapping problems.
If there are any device mappings in the imported project that is not matched in the current project, these objects will be added to the end of the device list. Thus you won’t end up with two device folders.
Nice!
The merge project command can also be useful if you e.g. have created a new project template with a different plugin layout, and you want that layout propagated to older projects. You could simply create a new project with this template and then merge it with the older project. The result is a project where all arrangements are reassigned with the objects in the template
…this looks like a very nice solution to automapping issues surely…:shock: Two questions before the real celebrations begin though 😛 …
Frits…
1.Will all the FX and Vsti preset and bank settings e.t.c also be reassigned to any arrangement after a merge?
2. So I create my new template with my new VST plugin folder layout and additional new plugs with some older ones now removed. I also have changed my hardware so the devices in the new template reflect that.
Will the new merge feature also ‘refresh’ the hardware device mappings list as well by removing /replacing the older hardware device mappings in the same way it will do for VST’s? I just have to be 100% sure 🙂
Zynewave@Conquistador wrote:
1.Will all the FX and Vsti preset and bank settings e.t.c also be reassigned to any arrangement after a merge?
Local bank assignments on tracks will stay intact. But your question made me realize that I need to check the device definition in the imported project for any library presets, and move these into the current project before deleting the redundant device objects in the imported project.
2. So I create my new template with my new VST plugin folder layout and additional new plugs with some older ones now removed. I also have changed my hardware so the devices in the new template reflect that.
Will the new merge feature also ‘refresh’ the hardware device mappings list as well by removing /replacing the older hardware device mappings in the same way it will do for VST’s? I just have to be 100% sure 🙂
That’s the goal.
Conquistador@Zynewave wrote:
Local bank assignments on tracks will stay intact.
Nice.
But your question made me realize that I need to check the device definition in the imported project for any library presets, and move these into the current project before deleting the redundant device objects in the imported project.
Yes…better to identify any possible banana skins as early as possible. I am glad the question I asked helped in some way. 🙂
Will the new merge feature also ‘refresh’ the hardware device mappings list as well by removing /replacing the older hardware device mappings in the same way it will do for VST’s? I just have to be 100% sure 🙂
That’s the goal.
If you can pull this off (judging by your past challenges and successes I think you will) it will be a hugely important addition to Podium.
Thanks for looking into it! ➡ 
druidI’m not really sure if it’s already been covered, but getting into the innards of Podium, having the device definitions there… Importing several plugins where the author has not changed certain things… I noticed some plugs, by different authors, made in SynthEdit, used the same definition, because they had the same name (something like “SynthEdit Template” bla bla). And although this is a bigger problem, I realised that newer version VSTs, just ’cause I either relocate the file in the VST device or just replace the existing file, may have altered innards that are not reimported into Podium, since it relies on the project settings for each file.
I replaced FreeAmp 2 with FreeAmp 3, but I rename the VSTs to “FreeAmp.dll”. I haven’t used it in a project yet, and so the fact they have been heavily altered does not matter to me, but I HAVE already set it up in my template! Which means it had the old imported settings! If I hadn’t been being anal about going and renaming so many things right inside where some will never look, I would’ve possibly never realised this…
I really really don’t like how plugins are handled in Podium. I understand it might enable some potential uses, but I’d like to see it all a lot more automated and those options only available to those who want to mess with them. I’d like plugins to be updated etc. within Podium.
The way I work in Podium so far, is importing all my VSTs to devices, setting up some things, and saving it as a template, so I can just add VSTs and start a blank project, you know? But currently it seems that small things could crop up to make big problems later, if I’m not careful.
I can’t help but like energyXT’s handling of plugins and modular interface; you can even drag and drop a VST from anywhere on your computer (say you wanted to drag one in and test it before bothering to place it properly etc?), and you don’t need global instances for multiple inputs and outputs, you just wire them together. Its CC mapping as well is simple, so I can just use my controller easily. I can’t help but long for some of these features. Some of them are filled by me merely using the VST version, but some are sort of required at a host level to work…
Anyway, just thought I’d say that.
acousmodI realised that newer version VSTs, just ’cause I either relocate the file in the VST device or just replace the existing file, may have altered innards that are not reimported into Podium
This is a major problem for me.
I don’t know if we speak about the same thing, but I have asked some years ago a “rescan mapping” or “rebuild mapping” of plugins or something like this.
In every host, when there is an update in a plugin that has changed the internal parameters names or order for example, the host says “some parameters could not be load”. But it loads the plugin and updates what exists.
The only risk is that some automations perhaps goes wrong or are linked to another parameter.
But it is your problem to correct it.
On the other hand, Podium simply ignores the changes, the old mapping remains, even if it doesn’t work anymore, and new parameters for example are not available.
The only way we have is to delete the plugin and reimport it. Of course, all the settings and automations are completely lost, and we have to insert it manually in all tracks were the previous version was.
I agree that in normal circumstancies it must not be a problem, and if the update is important editors generally give an independant plugin version.
It is a big problem for me because I have to modify my plugins very often, and when this occurs I lost everything…
Happily, I limit the use of plugins in Podium and do all the hard work in other hosts, but it is something that could be certainly improved.
Perhaps I am wrong and is there now a way for updating the parameters without having to delete the plugins ?