Malcolm Jacobson.
druidHi guys! I am hoping you might be able to help me with a problem I have run into!
I have two vocal takes (on separate tracks, not in a composite audio situation) where I am slicing up the take into segments. I am emphasising certain phrases, and allowing the second take to play then, but I mute other parts. So, effectively, the whole take is there, but I have split it up and mute sections of it, and let the others play. I have created slight fade ins and outs on all pieces. The first take just plays through.
On the second take I have energyXT, which inside it has Voxengo StereoTouch and Voxengo MSED within.
They are both within a group track called “verse”.
When I went to the verse track, and set it to enable offline bounce mode, and then got it to create the bounce, there are intermittent pops because at some points the audio just goes silent. I have no idea what’s up. I believe it is both tracks being this way, not just the second, so I don’t think it’s the effect I added on the second.
I thought to try realtime bounce, but it says “arm bounce” and .. I have no idea what to do from there. I’ve never really run into this problem with any software I’ve used, so I’m hoping someone can help me work it out!
If I need to provide screenshots or samples, let me know, and I’ll try to get some tomorrow. Thanks!
ZynewaveStrange. If you remove all plugins from the two tracks and just bounce render the raw audio, do you still get glitches?
thcilnnahojI must confess I’ve had some problems with bouncing too, lately. Though the symptoms are different, and have to do with plug-ins that add latency, which doesn’t seem to be the case with the ones you’re using.
Workaround to get real-time bounce recording working:
1. Open the track menu -> Bounce -> Enable Realtime Record Bouncing
2. Ctrl-click the B button on the track header, or press Ctrl-B to enable realtime bounce recording.
3. Activate record mode on the transport bar, or press K – the track’s bounce button should light up red.
4. If the group track you’re bouncing on has no effects, enabling bouncing should have created an empty effect track. Otherwise you can on which track bouncing is enabled in the track menu, where it says Bounce:
5. On the now unhidden track, you need to draw in an empty audio event to record in (use double-click or pencil tool). After this, you can hide the effect track lane again, if you want.
6. Start playback (phew)!
7. Press B or click on the bounce button to turn bounce recording off and enable bounce playback instead.
druidAlright, I’ve done quite a few different types of renders to work out what’s going on… I should point out that these vocals were recorded at 96kHz and 24-bit.
In the most basic sense, real-time recording seems to solve the problem. The odd part is, it doesn’t matter about the fx.
Here’s the list of what I did:
So after all that it seems that Podium is glitching the offline bounces for some reason, because even after deleting the FX offline bounces still glitch. I’m not sure what else to try. Would describing my setup help? I could post samples and screenshots too, if required.
I’ve never had this problem in all hosts that I’ve tried … although, I’ve only tried two hosts in this regard, really :). Podium, and energyXT. Anyway, I’m sure there’s a reason for this, since far more people would’ve noticed this sooner if it happened across the board. Now I’ve just got to work out why this specific situation is glitching! They are just straight .wav files placed on two tracks, other than the FX I gave one of them.
thcilnnahoj – thanks for explaining the realtime bounce mode. I would never have worked that out without your help!
thcilnnahojA few other ideas…
If you have the time, you could try and strip the arrangement down even further, if possible at all – remove all other tracks, effects, automation, any fades or crossfades. Also try deleting the parts of the recording that are muted.
If you still have real-time bouncing set up, try setting it back to offline mode (track menu -> bounce) and rendering again – who knows, maybe the first bounce event got corrupted somehow. :-k
I don’t think this makes a difference for bouncing, but do you have “stream muted sounds for fast response after unmuting” in the preferences (engine tab) enabled?
I can’t speak for Frits, but an example project would surely help, even if only to test whether the problems appear on different setups.
druidOk, found my problem.
In short, projects that are set to 96000Hz are not offline-bouncing correctly, at least on my system.
Can anyone else test on their system creating a new 96000Hz project, adding one track and inserting a sample (preferably 96000Hz if you want it to sound “right”) into it, bouncing it and playing it back to see if it’s glitching?
Frits, how does offline bouncing work, anyway? Does it interface at all with the audio device and/or its drivers (ASIO), or is it completely Podium and the plugins just working with data?
I did various tests, and in the end I gave up and started a new project, put only one of the takes on a line, and bounced it offline… And it still had the same problem. Realtime works fine.
I tried 44100Hz samples in a 96000Hz project, and of course it plays very fast but it also had the occasional mutey glitches. I did the reverse; put a 96000Hz sample in a project set to 44100Hz, and it was very low in pitch of course, but did not glitch.
Does anyone else find that if they are working on a project in 96kHz and use a 96kHz recording, even of only 10 seconds should do it, and then if offline bounced, the resulting bounce will keep cutting out intermittently?
I can provide an audio recording of the glitches I’m talking about if that helps.
Now, I don’t know if my sound card matters or not, but as I said I’m using ASIO4ALL at the moment. It’s an onboard sound card, unfortunate but Tascam’s 64-bit drivers for my USB interface do not work (grrr) so I am left with this as my only choice for now. Not sure if that makes a difference to offline bouncing or not.
Otherwise, my computer is quite new. It’s a i7 860, 4gb RAM, good vid card etc etc, and the CPU barely moves when I’m playing that audio track.
thcilnnahojYep, I can definitely confirm it’s broken somehow. Also at 88.2 KHz, it seems?
Congratulations for being the first Podium user to try 96K! 🙂
druidI can’t believe I’d be the first?? 😛
Here’s something else interesting: I am sure that the bounces I did of the percussion bass and guitar on the same track were done within Podium as well (they certainly are in the “Master” folder and named appropriately), though it may have been 20 versions ago! It was quite some time. Anyway, 96000Hz worked back then just fine. Perhaps this issue occurred with the updating of the bounce stuff within Podium?
I would’ve tried 88200Hz but ASIO4ALL wasn’t initialising at that rate. I’ve had issues with that rate in other programs too, though. I think it’s considered a little non-standard.
Oh well, at least it’s not just me then!
ZynewaveBug confirmed here as well 😮
I’ll fix that before 2.26 is released.
Frits, how does offline bouncing work, anyway? Does it interface at all with the audio device and/or its drivers (ASIO), or is it completely Podium and the plugins just working with data?
It doesn’t use the audio driver. It uses a buffer size of 128 samples (or the size set for the ASIO driver if it is smaller than 128 samples).
druidOoh, nasty! 🙂
I asked because I wondered if ASIO4ALL was causing it. I felt stupid asking, because I’m pretty well-versed on computers, but there might have been something I didn’t know about.
Anyway, I’m glad to see you found the problem! I’m looking forward to having the bug fixed!
And I only found out because I was going to bounce an example of vocals so my girlfriend could listen to something I did with them! 😆
thcilnnahojOkay, since this is taken care of, please allow me to share some of my bouncing woes. In the hope that it’s just me who’s doing something wrong. 😉
1. Delay compensation isn’t quite right when a track is bounce-enabled and the effect producing the delay is bypassed.
2. Sometimes, there are segments that just don’t get rendered. The bigger the delay a plug-in adds, the more often it seems to happen. This is most prominent at bar 1, but I’ve since also had it happen elsewhere, especially with short audio events.
Both can be seen in a short video I just uploaded: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJT33lhDhh4 (I don’t know why, but YouTube does some horrible resizing :?)
pavouk100@thcilnnahoj wrote:
2. Sometimes, there are segments that just don’t get rendered. The bigger the delay a plug-in adds, the more often it seems to happen. This is most prominent at bar 1, but I’ve since also had it happen elsewhere, especially with short audio events.
Wow, I was experiencing this problem from time to time to, but never got to distilling the simple scenario like that, so I did not bother reporting without any details. Thanks thcilnnahoj!
Zynewave@thcilnnahoj wrote:
Okay, since this is taken care of, please allow me to share some of my bouncing woes. In the hope that it’s just me who’s doing something wrong. 😉
1. Delay compensation isn’t quite right when a track is bounce-enabled and the effect producing the delay is bypassed.
2. Sometimes, there are segments that just don’t get rendered. The bigger the delay a plug-in adds, the more often it seems to happen. This is most prominent at bar 1, but I’ve since also had it happen elsewhere, especially with short audio events.
Both can be seen in a short video I just uploaded: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJT33lhDhh4 (I don’t know why, but YouTube does some horrible resizing :?)
Thanks for the video.
It seems that setting the bounce capture on an effect track will “bypass” the bypass delay compensation of the plugin on that effect track. The bug can be worked around by inserting an effect track above the delay introducing effect, and set the bounce on that effect track.
2. Sometimes, there are segments that just don’t get rendered.
In your video you have SIR on the track. Does the dropped audio in the bounce happen only when you have a delay introducing effect on the track?
I’ve fixed the 96K (and 192K) samplerate bounce bug mentioned in this topic, but the issue with the delay compensation may have to wait until 2.27, so I have more time to get it right.
druidThanks for fixing the bug I posted. Though I couldn’t test it, it was reported that 88200Hz has the issue too. Have you fixed it for this as well?
(I ask just in case; it’s quite possible the fix was a general one and doesn’t need to be tweaked for each sample rate. 😛 )
thcilnnahoj@Zynewave wrote:
The bug can be worked around by inserting an effect track above the delay introducing effect, and set the bounce on that effect track.
Hmm, maybe it should even be standard practice to always place a new track at the end of the effect chain… :-k
I think the last time you revised bouncing, you said you had in mind that most users would want to use it simply to freeze a track. But if you decide to add some more effects and bounce again later on, they most likely won’t be frozen because the bounce file will still be rendered on the track it was first set at – not the easiest thing to change for a newcomer.
It can also become confusing if the bounce event disappears when you delete the effect track bouncing is enabled on.
“Advanced” users that may want the bounce to be rendered at a different point in the chain shouldn’t find it a problem to do so, still.
2. Sometimes, there are segments that just don’t get rendered.
In your video you have SIR on the track. Does the dropped audio in the bounce happen only when you have a delay introducing effect on the track?
Yes, and the length of parts that fail ro render seems to depend on the delay. As said, I’ve noticed it most often happens at the beginning of an audio event, and even more often with short ones.
Also, it seems to relate, somehow, to the position on the timeline… these’re my findings – it may well have been just coincidence, though.
Here’s another testing video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PBYJj9psos
With zPitch, there are short dropouts at the beginning of each event that’s on the beat. When I swap the hi-hats with the bassdrum and snare, they render fine.
With SIR on the track, almost the whole event is dropped in the bounce file. Again, only when directly on, or shortly after the beat.
In the last test, I move the bassdrum and snare events to a little earlier position, and suddenly, they render fine again.
Thank you very much for looking into it! 🙂