Topic: Disappointed

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 16 total)
  • #1209
    Lawrence
    Participant

    I wanted so much to like Podium but I’m very disappointed in the structure I have to use while mixing. Take a look at the picture below and then read the follow up comments.

    First things first… (if I’ve missed some things please correct me) … and please take these comments in the spirit they’re being delivered. I’m telling you why (at this point) this application dissapoints me so much.

    Importing Files: I imported some audio files to mix and I had to go to each and every file to tell it to “enable audio mixing”. That’s simply makes no sense. They’re audio files… when I import them they should be ready to go in the mixer. Why do I have to tell the program to enable audio mixing on each file?

    As I was importing those files to the timeline I could find no way to select many at once and drag them all in from the included list. I had to do them one at a time. Did I miss something here?

    50% of my work is loading and mixing other people’s contiguous files.

    Mixing: Looking at the graphic there’s no way I could keep a smooth workflow the way inserts and sends are built and used in this application. Everything has levels and meters and appears all over the place. Just the simple task of balancing reverb levels on a send and return path took way too long. I’ve been engineering for 25 years and this works nothing like any console I’ve ever used.

    Look at the last 3 channels in the mixer. That’s my reverb return with an eq behind it. Now sure, I could have put one of those directy on the return channel and only had 2 there but then I can’t rearrange the one that’s directly on the channel easily. I could see my master channel taking up 6 channels in the mixer. It’s WAY to confusing to just slide over and adjust something. You have to make sure you have the correct channel. In any other daw there a single return channel with a single fader. It slows me down considerably.

    Granted.. it exactly works as designed. I just feel it was not designed for working studios but more for individual users and hobbyists who just wanted something “different”. Is that the case? If so my gripes are entirely without justification.

    Faders: Not having vertical faders on the tracks makes mixing much more difficult. There’s no way to glance across the mixer channels and get a relative visual balance of things. Having the pan controls and the level control looking almost identical doesn’t help.

    There are a lot of “Cubase Style” features in the main screen. One that would serve Podium well is a large vertical fader in the Inspector for tracks. That huge empty space at the bottom of the Inspector in the photo? There could be a vertical fader with horizontal pan there.

    Rearranging Plugs In A Chain: I had a simple drum group with a TC reverb on the group. I inserted a comp which fell after the reverb. Rearranging the order of those took a minute. You have to be very precise where you drop it or the group gets all scrambled. This should be much easier.

    If I had 4 sends on that channel with two plugs each it would almost be unmanageable in the context of mixing a song with a client looking over my shoulder.

    Realtime Operations: In my other “independent developer” daw (who’s name I won’t mention out of respect for your company) I can load large plugins while the song is playing with no glitches. I can patch plugs in and out without ever stopping playback and the audio never breaks up. The advertisements for Podium in this regard are incorrect here for me. In Podium playback pauses for 4-5-6 seconds while some plugs load and then resumes. Same with deleting a large plug (Altiverb), everything pauses while it unloads.

    Tiny Interface Gripe: The Cubase style sliders that expand the tracks vertically and horizontally seem intuitively backwards. If I slide a slider out towards the right everything moves left/smaller, sliding up moves down/bigger.

    It seems backwards to me. Pushing the slider up should move all the tracks up/smaller and pushing it left should bring all the tracks left/smaller.. the objects should move in the same direction as the sliders.

    Summary:

    I think Podium is a great product but as far as I can tell it simply doesn’t operate (at a basic level) the way audio mixing has been done for many years. The mixer is all but unusable for me in an actual “working” situation. Working on my own songs is one thing but working for hire on the clock is another. A professional engineer like myself is being presented with too much of the wrong kinds of information and not of enough of the kind we need for a smooth workflow. There’s simply too much redundancy in the mixer and the heirarchy gets in the way in the mixer and in the main track screen.

    I wanted so much to LOVE and use Podium. I still LOVE the graphic design and the basic UI, the way most things are presented and hidden and the ergonomics of it. In that regard it is THE BEST I’VE EVER SEEN on a daw.

    On a functional workflow level for mixing… I simply can’t use it. I didn’t try tracking anything with it. I’m of the opinion that had you taken a more standard approach to the internal track architechture (plugins, sends, faders, pans etc) Podium would be one of the most sought after daws on the market.

    I applaud you for making a fine application that I’m sure will fit with many who “get it” I just don’t get it. No offense intended but I simply cannot use it in my studio for clients as is.

    Which is why I’m so disappointed… just looking at it on the screen starts my creative juices flowing. Then they’re interrupted constantly by the internal architecture. Unless I can see single channels in the mixer for groups, returns (with send levels for each send) , audio tracks etc, with standard faders, Podium is just unusable for me.

    If I may… with all due great respect to the skill and hard work it must have taken to develop this application… I sure would like to know why (in the face of this FANTASTIC GUI) the decision was make to use this heirarchy-style architecture instead of a standard architechture like most every other daw.

    What advantages exactly is it supposed to allow? I don’t see any.

    #9500
    Zynewave
    Keymaster

    Hi Lawrence,

    Thanks for your detailed feedback. As discussed in the other mixer topic you started, I’m going to work on the mixer layout. I’ll address many of the issues you’ve mentioned. I would be happy if you would drop by in the coming weeks, and comment about the latest mixer development.

    #9501
    Lawrence
    Participant

    Thank you.

    I’m pleased that you took the comments in the correct spirit, that’s the sign of a true professional. If was redundant in some of my comments (and I was) it was because before I was playing with it on a at home and today I loaded it in the studio and tried to mix a song in it as I would normally do in one of the other daws I use.

    Some of those things (while admittedly redundant to comments I’ve already made in other threads) were much more glaringly apparent.
    Aand my disappointment was much greater since Podium looks FANTASTIC on my 30′ Gateway HD widescreen monitor in the studio runni at 1680×1050. Boy… now THAT’s what a daw GUI should look like.

    Good luck to you in continued development. Podium has GREAT potential.

    BTW, that audio eraser tool is fantastic. I haven’t seen one quite like that before. Great job.

    #9504
    Conquistador
    Participant

    Faders: Not having vertical faders on the tracks makes mixing much more difficult. There’s no way to glance across the mixer channels and get a relative visual balance of things.

    Excellent point. That “glance” can save a a good deal of time.

    Having the pan controls and the level control looking almost identical doesn’t help.

    Some sort of variation would help yes.

    There are a lot of “Cubase Style” features in the main screen. One that would serve Podium well is a large vertical fader in the Inspector for tracks. That huge empty space at the bottom of the Inspector in the photo? There could be a vertical fader with horizontal pan there.

    Agreed.

    Rearranging Plugs In A Chain: I had a simple drum group with a TC reverb on the group. I inserted a comp which fell after the reverb. Rearranging the order of those took a minute. You have to be very precise where you drop it or the group gets all scrambled. This should be much easier.

    This has been a problem for me too at times.

    I’m pleased that you took the comments in the correct spirit, that’s the sign of a true professional.

    Always nice to see. πŸ™‚

    #9513
    bcgreen
    Participant

    The fact that “enable audio mixing” isn’t enabled by default bothers me as well. I also didn’t realize that you couldn’t drag multiple audio files in at once…

    But, as usual, I thank Frits for listening to his customers and putting out a fine product with lots of future potential!

    Bryan

    #9514
    Zynewave
    Keymaster

    The fact that “enable audio mixing” isn’t enabled by default bothers me as well.

    I have already changed this behaviour so that the new track by default is mix enabled. It was an oversight.

    #9518
    bcgreen
    Participant

    Sweet! Thanks, Frits!

    Bryan

    #9529
    sam c
    Participant

    i like the faders. a distinction of some sort between pan and vol might make sense. hopefully changes to the operations made over time don’t change the appearance too much!

    #9532
    Lawrence
    Participant

    @sam c wrote:

    i like the faders. a distinction of some sort between pan and vol might make sense. hopefully changes to the operations made over time don’t change the appearance too much!

    I agree, I like the faders also. I just don’t like that in order to use them in the mixer you must be writing automation. I think he said he’s looking into changing that.

    They are very nice looking so no, I wouldn’t change the appearance.

    #9536
    hobbes
    Participant

    I am so glad to read these comments, because i LOVE Podium and its GUI. I think its wonderful. But i have been trying to do a whole project on it and came up on those same problems. I really started to wonder if it was Podium, or whether i was just a retard. I’m relieved to see i’m not the only who thinks its a little unclear.
    Great of you to take the criticism so wonderfully, its great to know.
    But if i may ask a question he asked that wasnt answered……

    “I sure would like to know why (in the face of this FANTASTIC GUI) the decision was make to use this heirarchy-style architecture instead of a standard architechture like most every other daw.

    What advantages exactly is it supposed to allow?”

    #9538
    Conquistador
    Participant

    @hobbes wrote:

    But if i may ask a question he asked that wasnt answered……

    “I sure would like to know why (in the face of this FANTASTIC GUI) the decision was make to use this heirarchy-style architecture instead of a standard architechture like most every other daw.

    What advantages exactly is it supposed to allow?”

    This might help answer that question…

    http://www.zynewave.com/wiki/doku.php?id=tutorials:tracks:index

    Also there was an epic discussion in response to some of Improvs questions…on page 2 here πŸ˜‰

    http://www.zynewave.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=668&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

    Personally while I would prefer the zGrid still the current set up still has it’s advantages…

    1. Visual signal flow
    The hierarchic approach really does help to *see* the signal flow much easier than any other host I have used. It is far more visual. Not to everyone’s taste but very helpful I think. The down side is the track numbers used. But the current hierarchic approach combined with the zGrid would make Podium an even more formidable host.

    2. Bounce from any branch of the tree
    Quick real time bounces are possible from almost any point of the tree. Because of the use of additional tracks Podium offers a unique option to bounce a version of a track at any point of the tree (pretty much anyway). For instance one could easily bounce a group track output in real-time and mute the other tracks.

    If you do not like what you hear in real-time, you could easily set up another bounce track but this time at an earlier point in the chain, all of this during playback.

    Of course you could bounce enable any of the child tracks with effects on them and then bounce that tracks output in real time, so that could be a version of your drum tracks or Vocals. It is highly flexible.

    You could keep the flow going by adding more tracks with different FX for experimentation to the tree, (Group or Child tracks) so it is very flexible and very powerful. Of course if it all gets too busy, hide them all and use the Group panel instead. It is very slick. But again uses many tracks….but as a result offers a great deal of flexibility in return.

    Of course you can also drag up the mixer (or just double click the mixer header) to see every single relationship between each tracks at a glance, clicking on the cross hair of the group track (in the mixer) will minimise all the child tracks in that group, all of this during playback.

    If during all this experimentation you find a chain of FX you like, save it as a track template. (Only available in the same project as of now)

    3. Project container
    Because each Project is a container for multiple arrangements you could easily have another arrangement that is used as a feeder for your main arrangement.

    Do all your experimentation in there and import into the main arrangement. Track templates are effectively “template arrangements” so you could even use that as a separate arrangement for various experimentation with FX chains e.t.c

    4. Track output monitoring
    The use of one FX per track allows one to monitor the output for instance of each FX on a track individually. Not a big deal for many but still another small benefit of the one FX per track approach.

    Using the ZGrid is still my 1st choice as to my work flow preference but there are still plenty of advantages IMO in the hierarchic tree idea that I have not seen anywhere else.

    #9540
    Zynewave
    Keymaster

    Thanks for helping with the questions Conquistador.

    I think the main problem as expressed in this topic, is that of the visual presentation in the mixer. The hierarchic engine is a very flexible construction. I frequently see user requests in the Tracktion, eXT and Reaper forums, where users are requesting possibilities of organizing tracks into folders, folders in folders, folder freeze, etc. All this is possible in Podium. It is a matter of tuning the Podium UI so that it allows simpler manipulation of the track organization. Over the last couple of days I’ve had some exciting ideas on how to improve the mixer. It has moved to the top of my priority list.

    #9563
    Conquistador
    Participant

    @Zynewave wrote:

    Thanks for helping with the questions Conquistador.

    While I am a zGrid kind of guy πŸ™‚ I just thought it would be best to show case what the current hierarchic system can do in a few quick points. As it is still a strangely somewhat unknown aspect of Podium.

    It is a matter of tuning the Podium UI so that it allows simpler manipulation of the track organization.

    Exactly yes.

    Over the last couple of days I’ve had some exciting ideas on how to improve the mixer. It has moved to the top of my priority list.

    Sounds very interesting. 8)

    #9591
    pernst
    Participant

    My two cents, I never use the mixer. One thing I love about your software is how easy it is for me to get the the part I need to adjust in the mix, and use the track inspector/group feature to adjust the level. Looking at a mixer never helped me to mix as well as listening to the song does. Listen to the song, hear parts that are not setting right in the mix, click on the group and adjust away.

    #9652
    Lawrence
    Participant

    Dropped back in to find that the developer is making some changes to the mixer already… that’s what I call responsive. Impressive.

    Just to be clear…

    I wasn’t knocking Podium at all. I fell in love with it at first sight. I still don’t quite 100% get the heiarchy but I’m working on it… it does make sense on a lower level to me but on a visual level it’s a little confusing for me. As a longtime engineer I can go to just about any studio (with just about any daw), and once I put the mixer up on the screen I can get to work in a matter of minutes mixing, from top to bottom (or switching between)…

    – Input/Phase/Trim
    – DSP/EQ/Plugins
    – Sends (pre/post)
    – Pan
    – Faders/Solo/Mute/Automation Enable/Disable

    This takes an entirely new skill set and an entirely new way of thinking. Not that’s it’s a bad thing, if it works it works. FWIW I have similar issues with Reaper as (like Podium) it currently has no extended mixer.

    I’m keeping a close eye on this daw though. I still have a major crush on πŸ˜€

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