suges.
townkati am ok with that but also a background rendering option (wich i know is not easy to do) will save some user waiting times, but only if it works really smooth (if windows can handle that), for the future of corse
cya
suges@darcyb62 wrote:
I am still debating as to whether or not I should be going ahead with the purchase of the this product. I am still kicking the wheels per se, but over the last couple of weeks haven’t had the time to spend with Podium. So for what it’s worth, here’s my 2 cents.
Darcy. It’s 90 bucks. You’re not buying a car. There’s no better sequencer at that price, and you know it. Buy it already.
Did I mention it’s…*90* bucks? (That’s less than $100.)
darcyb62@suges wrote:
@darcyb62 wrote:
I am still debating as to whether or not I should be going ahead with the purchase of the this product. I am still kicking the wheels per se, but over the last couple of weeks haven’t had the time to spend with Podium. So for what it’s worth, here’s my 2 cents.
Darcy. It’s 90 bucks. You’re not buying a car. There’s no better sequencer at that price, and you know it. Buy it already.
Did I mention it’s…*90* bucks? (That’s less than $100.)
You know that’s funny… I have no qualms stepping on to a car lot and driving off have spent a few 10’s of thousands of dollars, but here I am arguing with myslef over this. My argument is 3 pronged:
1) Do I stick with Tracktion? It does most of what I want but I have been coming across some quircks that are becoming more and more annoying. (Note: Tracktion has cost me about $100)
2) Do I go to Podium? Looks pretty good. I want to do a song from start to finish to really see how the workflow compares to Tracktion. I will miss Final Mix which is a Tracktion only VST though.
3) Do I take a more significant purchase and move to Cubase or Cakewalk or even Pro Tools?
Money isn’t so much the issue but getting the product that will work best for me is. I’ve even considered moving off the PC platform altogether and going with Mac, but 1 sweet little VSTi has stopped me from that so far.
Cheers…
sugesAllow me to try to help you with this…I actually own almost EVERY sequencer from Logic to ProTools (as in bought, no crack action) and I’ve weighed them all.
Admittedly, for the last two years I’ve been using Logic 7 to sequence and Pro Tools 6 (now 7) to mix. On a Mac. Not because I wanted to, but because evvvverybody I work with does. Now keep in mind I do this for a living, so I can’t always use what feels best for me, due to people needing to see certain things in your arsenal (software and hardware) to be able to trust their projects to you for remixing or engineering, whatever.
About the Mac platform, I say this: OS X is a whole lot better than Windows. There’s all the usual bla bla bl’blaas about how it has no viruses, etc. But what’s never mentioned is the intangibles, how generally sitting infront of a Mac for the monster 12 hour plus sessions that we usually have to do on a regular basis seems less taxing than it does on Windows, for your eyes, for your fingers, for your body, and for your mind. It’s just a very pleasant, well-made, unobtrusive OS.
That being said: Macs are overpriced and proprietary. No one wants to say it, but it’s true. They cost too much for what they offer (when compared to equivalent PC performance), and you can’t upgrade with anyone else besides Apple. If you want to get a faster computer, you need to buy a whole new computer.
On top of that, Logic is VERY very hard to use if you come from ANY other sequencer. It is fabulous for MIDI work, and naturally once you figure it out you’ll be flying with it, but it took ME at least a month, and I pick up new things in seconds usually. On top of that, it has a lot of legacy features which aren’t so useful anymore, but you need to understand them to use the program (i.e. the Environment). Finally, Logic doesn’t sound very good raw compared to other sequencers. ‘Nuff people will argue this. Whatever. I have them all. You CAN get it to sound just as good as anything else, and it really doesn’t matter at the end of the day since you have to get your final product mastered anyway, but I like my stuff to sound good while I’m working on it, to stay enthused.
Still though, for budding musicians, a $500 Mac mini comes with GarageBand 2 with piles of plugins, it is an attractive choice for a lot of people in that category. Logic + ProTools is basically THE professional choice, at least here in North America. But I think that’s for no other reason than because it’s familiar, and everybody’s trying to be the same as everyone else.
Now: Traktion. Let’s not fuck around, shall we? Traktion SUCKS. Everyone knows it sucks. Back when Jules had the big idea and released Traktion 1, it was a revolution in sequencer design. I bought it the day I found out about it. For the first couple weeks you’re telling all your friends about it. You’re messing around. You’re having fun.
But then it comes time to do WORK with it. In other words, produce a song and get it sold. The limitations become apparent. Hi, I’d like to run a bus for a verb plugin? WHAT THE HELL? Racks. Racks are so counter-intuitive, their very inclusion negates the simplicity of the main Traktion concept.
No worries, Traktion 2 is coming out soon, it’s got Mackie behind it, bla bla. Now don’t lie: after waiting, what, a YEAR for it to come out, anticipation…then it finally comes out. NOW you can change COLORS! Now it has shoddy support for a Mackie Control! Now it comes with a few so-so plugins. But alas…what is this? RACKS???
Traktion 2 was the biggest let-down in software history. The message baords prove it, with people selling off their licenses daily at utter losses.
Traktion (I know I spelled it wrong all this time) is fine for the very very budding, wet-behind-the-ears musicians, but you can’t do serious work with it. That’s all there is to it. The very FACT that you’re looking elsewhere (here) proves it. If you miss Final Mix, use Waves L2 or if that’s too expensive, use Izotope Ozone (I actually like it better).
Now onto Cakewalk/SONAR. It sucks. Forget about it. (Naw actualy it doesn’t suck, but who uses that? I don’t believe for a second Chuck D. does, Cakewalk paid him to say that!)
Cubase/Nuendo. First. Cubase has a bad rep of being the sequencer of choice for “basement D&B producers”. In other words being the Kia of the high-end sequencers. I’ve owned it and been upgrading since 1.0…and all the way back then, I was a basement producer! The software has come a LONG way, that’s all there is to say. The current SX 3 version is pretty much the best sequencer on the PC (notwithstanding Podium!), in terms of performance, ease of use, sound quality…pretty much everything. You can take a production from the spark in your subconcious all the way to mastering if you so wanted to, and it feels good all the way through.
Because of this bad rep, Steinberg released Nuendo. And don’t mistake it: Nuendo IS Cubase with a different color scheme and support for some high-end digital video devices. When you buy Cubase, you’ve bought the Nuendo sound engine and everything else associated with that quality level.
Pro Tools. It’s like this: if you’re rocking a ProTools|HD system, you’ve got the best there is. And you would not even LOOK or THINK elsewhere (maybe a secondary app to do your MIDI work). If money is no object to you, then there is no other choice…remember though, this IS an almost $20,000 investment to get everything you need to run a decent studio. Even professional producers choose to let the STUDIOS pay for this and use other solutions for their home studio (aka project studio).
ProTools LE/M-Powered? It’s not bad, straight up. You can get involved for about $350, picking up the software and the cheapo M-Audio Delta 44 (which isn’t a bad soundcard, believe it). The most obvious limitations are the 32-voice limit and the MIDI functionality (however, if you think Traktion has adequate MIDI, then you won’t miss anything).
And now (fingers are sore) Podium: Make no mistake, Podium is a work in progress. It’s also as complicated as Logic is to get into. But here’s what’s good about it:
– It is the most stable sequencer there is. (<--read this again)
– 64-bit mixing (I know Traktion has that too)
– It has enough functionality to take you from concept to execution (now especially with offline bouncing)
– The price is wayyy cheap for what it’s offering
– It sounds good
– It supports MIDI hardware very well (which Traktion doesn’t)
– It’s a great MIDI editor (which Traktion isn’t)
And finally, it’s got Frits behind it. Frits will not dry you out like Jules has. For as long as this site’s been up (about 2 years now I think) Frits has been answering everyone’s questions and fixing everyone’s little issues with their weird-ass plugins (sory guys hahha) every day, non stop. The boy never takes a break. Check out the version history…see the dates between versions and the massive features of each one. Frits is determined to make this happen, he’s responsible, and he’s got the serious coding skills to implement the top-tier features…he WAS the first on the block to do 64-bit mixing, you know!
Anyways I can’t type anymore or I’ll never play a keyboard again. But I hope this answers some of your questions, and makes your decision a bit clearer…it’s all about what your music’s targeted for at the end of the day…are you a hobbyist? A garage band burning CDs for the concerts? A basement producer? You’ve sold one song? You’ve sold 10 songs? You do this for a living? You’re god damn Dr. DRE! That’s the real issue that decides your sequencer needs.
super_crunchy@darcyb62 wrote:
You know that’s funny… I have no qualms stepping on to a car lot and driving off have spent a few 10’s of thousands of dollars, but here I am arguing with myslef over this. My argument is 3 pronged:
1) Do I stick with Tracktion? It does most of what I want but I have been coming across some quircks that are becoming more and more annoying. (Note: Tracktion has cost me about $100)
2) Do I go to Podium? Looks pretty good. I want to do a song from start to finish to really see how the workflow compares to Tracktion. I will miss Final Mix which is a Tracktion only VST though.
3) Do I take a more significant purchase and move to Cubase or Cakewalk or even Pro Tools?Money isn’t so much the issue but getting the product that will work best for me is. I’ve even considered moving off the PC platform altogether and going with Mac, but 1 sweet little VSTi has stopped me from that so far.
Cheers…
sell your Tracktion licence on something like KVR, buy Podium, and then buy another plug to replace FinalMix, eg FinalPlug
ZynewaveExcellent post, suges
super_crunchyyou beat me to it Frits, I was gonna say the same thing 😉
@suges: you made me laugh and laugh (because it rang true so well!), great post 8)
@darcyb62: I’ll add my 2 cents. I own licences for Podium, Tracktion, energyXT and used to use Muzys. I only use Podium, all the time. The only edge that Tracktion has over Podium IMO is audio clip support, which is better in Tracktion at the moment because each audio clip is treated as an object and can have separate fade ins/outs, gain etc and I think multiple sample rates are supported. But that’s it, Podium wins hands down in every other way IMO. And, Frits has said he’ll be adding audio clips fades etc at some point. To be honest, I’m getting by alright without audio clip fades/gain control, as I can always edit audio files in third party wave editors if the need arises.
And I wouldn’t worry too much about losing FinalMix. There are alternatives out there which I know/or have heard sound as good 🙂
super_crunchy@suges wrote:
And finally, it’s got Frits behind it. Frits will not dry you out like Jules has. For as long as this site’s been up (about 2 years now I think) Frits has been answering everyone’s questions and fixing everyone’s little issues with their weird-ass plugins (sory guys hahha) every day, non stop. The boy never takes a break. Check out the version history…see the dates between versions and the massive features of each one. Frits is determined to make this happen, he’s responsible, and he’s got the serious coding skills to implement the top-tier features…he WAS the first on the block to do 64-bit mixing, you know
@darcyb62: one more thing to reiterate Frits’ committment to Podium, and developing it further. Just read Frits’ blurb on the Contact page…
Podium is a labor of love which I have been working on since 1990. It all started during my student years where Podium saw the light of day on the Amiga computer. Over the years Podium has gone through many transformations until finally evolving into something that I felt was fit for public release. The Zynewave company was created in 2004 for this purpose.
PodianerGreat post suges!! I agree with almost everything you said! I also tried Tracktion and loved its ease of use, but as you clearly pointed out, when it’s time to “work” with it, it is really annoying, as far as bugs are concerned, or some really weird work arounds of things, that are so easy in other hosts. And as you said: Now that Podium has offline bounce, it will rock the whole sequenzer world, as soon as Frits puts more effort on marketing!!
Max
darcyb62Wow…
Excellent posts and that is probably one of the best (most meaningful) comparisons I have had regarding the different platforms.
I’ve started a song in Podium. I want to work through the whole process and see what I really think about it. So far though it has been very positive and I guess with what I save on Podium I could put towards a good control surface and some quality plugins.
I really appreciate the feedback.
Regarding Tracktion. It was my 1st DAW and like losing your virginity, that first one/time holds a special a place in your heart. But having said that as you become more experienced you start to see things in a different light. The shortcomings start to become more apparent and it becomes to move on. I think that time has come for me and Tracktion. I come here and get a session of tough love counselling. I think that’s great.
Darcy 😉
duncanparsonsI’ve been with Podium since the late private beta stage, and, as far as I can tell was the first to get a song public using it (KVR monthly contest Mar 2004: Islands Theme), and was the first paid up customer. It’s come along way since then. 🙂
It has always been top notch. Through the years I’ve used most packages in one form or another (not quite to the extent of suges!), and must say thet Podium is my favourite. I would thoroughly recommend it..
🙂
DSP
MaxMy 2 cents ’bout “sequencer wars”:
1. Cubase – it’s nice, but the interface is very-very bad. Why? Because it’s looks like hardware studio! It’s funny. I don’t understand the idea to create the virtual copy of real hardware with the same limitations. It’s virtual world! Why you can’t do whatever you want?! Podium’s interface is faaar better and much more flexible. And… the dongle. Just think – if you loose the dongle you need to buy new licence! What a strange copyprotection, that is the problem not only for pirates, but for legal users also. Cubase LE works without dongle, but it is cutdown and very limited version of SX.
2. Tracktion. I’m an owner of T1 NFR version. It’s nice, but interface is not so logical as in Podium. Podium’s MIDI editor is much better, and Podium supports MIDI hardware, and so on, all as suges said.
And think about copyprotection again. I’ve upgraded my hardware since I’ve registered my T1 NFR, and the key is not working anymore. It’s not a problem actually, I just need to go to the mackie website and generate new licence key, but the number of keys is limited. And it’s not only NFR limitation – same for all users. Copyprotection problems again.
3. EnergyXT – great little thing. But for me it works better as an effect chain than a sequencer. Yes, it can do some little things that Podium (yet) can’t, like enable/disable monitoring on MIDI editing, autoscroll windows on object move, but it’s all on Frits’ list. And – believe or not – Podium’s interface is better for me here too 😉 . BTW, eXT is much more buggy than Podium, but actually all the programs I’ve ever tested is more buggy than Podium (well, exept notepad maybe) 😆
4. Protools, Sonar, Logic – I have no experience with this programs. But I saw a lot of sceenshots and read a lot of user reviews. Looks that all of them have the same problems that Cubase have (exept that Pro Tools’ hardware copyprotection cost much more than Syncrosoft dongle 😆 ). It all looks and works like hardware.
5. FL Studio. I’ve tested 3 and 5 versions. I don’t like pattern-based work. Patterns are good for live performance, and I hope that someday Podium will have the ability to work with markers playlist, like Cubase.
But I don’t like patterns as the main idea of the program.
All Podium updates is FREE for exisitng users. Maybe someday there will be an upgrade with additional plugins that will cost some money. But all the updates you can get for free. Isn’t it great?!
Anyway, I think that Darcy should decide himself what the program is the best for him. I just want to say that my opinion is that Podium is the future of musical production. ❗
BTW, Darcy, here is free Waves L1 clone: http://www.kvraudio.com/get/1622.html . Very nice limiter, if you miss mackie finalmix.
sugesThanks guys for the props! If this music thing ever buggers out I’ll try my hand at being a salesman.
@darcyb62 wrote:
I’ve started a song in Podium. I want to work through the whole process and see what I really think about it. So far though it has been very positive and I guess with what I save on Podium I could put towards a good control surface and some quality plugins.
Do that, take a song from beginning to end in Podium and post here and let the fellas help you whenever you run into a “how the hell do I do this?” moment. It’ll get you over the hump fast. Keep in my mind your first song in Podium will take a lot longer than you’re used to in Whacktion, but by track number 3 you’ll be on fire.
Check out that M-Audio ProjectMix I/O…motorized control surface and soundcard all rolled into one. And it’s better than the Tascam version because it has a scribble strip (the LCD display), which you absolutely need when using faders.
@darcyb62 wrote:
Regarding Tracktion. It was my 1st DAW and like losing your virginity, that first one/time holds a special a place in your heart.
Hahahah. Awwww! You popped your cherry on Tracktion! That’s not bad though, you wouldn’t have wanted to start on Cubase 1.0 or Notator…or like me, on ScreamTracker I think it was. Darrrrrk days. Still though, the only place in my body I hold for MY first girl is somewhere in the colon area…wretched sow that she was.
@darcyb62 wrote:
I come here and get a session of tough love counselling.
That’s what I’m all about cause that’s how people get ME to see the light. A lot of people need to justify their purchases and posessions even though deep down, they know something’s better. I used to be like that. It took pros, people I respect, to point at my setup, laugh, and tell me what’s REALLY up. And then I finally come around. Tech support people who are PAID to help musicians should be nice and coddling and understanding…your peers should just tell you like it is and get under your skin to get you motivated. Besides…it’s good practise for how nasty the commercial music world is! Woooooooo.