Topic: Review and Assessment of Current Podium Abilities

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 29 total)
  • #2759
    The Telenator
    Participant

    This partial, items review reflects the standing of Podium 3.1.0, as I have had to roll back and then no time lately to update to 3.1.2, but it really has no bearing on the issues included. It has more to do with the here and now than the real future, so I’ve included it under Support, because that is what I find needed right now.

    Although I’ve been away from home and my computer for most of the last two weeks, Podium has been on my mind a lot, including all of the many posts regarding Feature Requests and our latest discussions of them. I want to do a bit of analysis here, but before I do two things need stating:

    First of all, I want to thank everybody who weighed in on features recently. I also realise that it was a repeat for some of you — for some, you took the time to list once again and comment on the very same features you have requested before. I think for many of us we saw in these current lists of features about what we expected to find, with the exception of perhaps one or two novel requests, such as CymaticCycle’s suggestion of a Tab Editor for Podium. I should add to this that I am in no way attempting to close comments on features — in fact, if you would like to add something to those threads, please do. But my second point right now is that I want to take a look at where Podium is right now and where it needs to be. In other words, I believe some sort of a critical review of this workstation is in order and, therefore, this post should run long, so please bear with me on this. I may need to break up the posting of my comments some, so that the forum or my browser doesn’t attempt an auto-signoff and lose my remarks when that happens.

    #21861
    The Telenator
    Participant

    Aside from our lists and discussions, a few items recently ‘shocked me back to reality’. One was the few problems that ensued after the Unicode update, but more important was that I suddenly realised that I was familiar enough with the MIDI issues regarding Podium, and I noticed I was spending entirely too much time building workarounds and band-aid fixes for a DAW that really should have these missing capabilities native in the first place. What really summed it all up for me was adimatis’ recent comment (paraphrased here) that he ‘did not want to be forced into using Podium AND yet another DAW merely to take care of regular business’. This is precisely where I stand in looking over the current abilities of Podium. I am in the position of having to use Reaper before or after Podium in order to get basic recording and editing chores taken care of. I can even go as far as to say I could survive with only Reaper (or perhaps some other DAW), but I could not survive with only Podium. Let me stress that I am doing no unusual work that might require a multi-station arrangement, even though I have tried that setup. Instead, all I am really attempting is to take care of regular audio and MIDI tasks, and I feel that having to rely on a second DAW is unacceptable when we look at the current state of the art regarding this type of software.

    Setting aside features that I might like to see added — personal whims, nice touches, and other fancy bells and whistles — I think we need to focus on the features Podium really must have to be a professional contender, and which of these it really should have NOW.

    You see, it won’t matter at all if Podium works on your fancy Win8-equipped phone or tablet if it cannot work as a completely professional piece of software. It instead will only pass as yet another curious app available on a tablet, for kids to sing into, add effects to their personal noises, and so on. And although I do believe having it able to function on a Win8 tablet is a wonderful notion, I see no real need for it or for any hurry. Even Microsoft seems more interested in other things lately — selling books and other media after its huge acquisition of part of the Barnes and Noble bookstores chain, more than it does in having a heavy-duty computing tablet. Expect to see something better than Nook and more like iTunes and Kindle on a Win8 tablet in about a year. And I can guarantee that this is where the lion’s share of their efforts are now and will be for a while. Much of what they will be looking at for quite some time will be putting their product in a position to take on Apple and Amazon.

    #21862
    Infinitoar
    Participant

    Not to try to start a “agreement war” here but I have to point this out regarding tablet development.

    In the U.S.’s unstable economy[believe it or not, it is still unstable in most states], developing a program for not only a medium for those who are not “tech nerds”[such as myself], but as Telenator put it, it would only be absolutely for kids to download for free and make little noises with. If a hardcore musician bought the app[for example] he/she would criticize not only the Podium app to shreds, but even worse, the not-so-heavily-featured Windows program itself.

    I recently looked at a GameInformer and I literally laughed so hard I was in tears. They did a poll, and realistic study on mobile O.S.’s. Long story short, if you are not developing for the iOS, then expect more coding trouble or no exposure at all.

    iOS>Google’s Android O.S.>Windows Mobile 7-8

    They even mentioned the Windows Mobile 7 Phone, and I LITERALLY forgot they EXISTED. LITERALLY. The only good thing a Windows Mobile O.S. has going good for it is Xbox Live. That’s a given of course. Everything else is tremendously failing on the mobile outlet of Windows and it’s getting worse by the year. So I also believe the development for a mobile “Windows”[which is even “worse”] version of Podium will bring Zynewave more pain than joy.

    Plus only hardware enthusiasts are going to be using Windows 8 and Windows Mobile 8[Mobile 8 is will be on Tablets too…] not general consumers with a brain. And with Windows 7 being a breath of fresh air from the garbage Windows Vi[Shit]sta I’m sure many people are not going to be jumping “immediate gun” on Windows 8 or Windows 8 mobile, there are even people who already tried the beta of Windows 8 and hate it. It’s geared towards mobile/tablet platforms[because Microsoft is trying to take over everything] and it running on PC’s will be GPU heavy, “like” Windows Vista.[Note: Windows Vista was actually supposed to be the perfect “gaming O.S.”……hahaha on that thought…]

    So all in all I think about this:
    Windows 8=Need to buy a better GPU, better “compatible” CPU, more RAM, faster HDD[Solid State most likely], a possible Win8 compatible motherboard, better PSU, make sure Win8 is 64bit which is more money, Podium full version and the app, a Windows 8 tablet, Windows 8 phone, should I keep going?

    Half of that is already more than likely over 500$ and that’s just to be “Windows 8 ready”. Even if you were to get a laptop or a pre-made PC, it’s still going to be at a high price.

    My end conclusion, I believe Zynewave should stick with developing Windows XP/Vista/7 versions of Podium, and leave the tablet or “mobile developing” alone.

    Or just do what he believe’s is right…

    #21863
    The Telenator
    Participant

    [Thanks for filling in some facts there for me and catching a couple of points I missed all together. Win8 has a UI that is essentially designed for illiterates and phone junkies. Although I do think it will ultimately be successful, please note the detractors you mentioned. Also, as Microsoft does almost every time (try to take over the world), as always it makes one wrong move inevitably and shoots itself in the foot. Please see Windows Live, Live Mail (still has the jitters in most browsers after 4 years and still doesn’t run well in its own IE9 browser!), the IE9 browser is bad in 32-bit and a total disaster in 64-bit, can’t use its stupid Silverwhatever flash copy to view some national news pages, they just cut back users of its Skywhatever Cloud system from 100 gigs to a mere 7 gigs storage, and it takes ALL DAY to upload to it — and now not only a ‘better’ tablet with a new OS that gets a lukewarm rating from everyone in the know. The EU and Opera browser is going to sue the pants off them again for browser anti-trust issue, same as a few years ago. I think the mngmt. is all on drugs. If I was MS I’d probably have to step in front of a fast city bus and end my own lack of foresight and save you all major suffering. Get back to ya on this. Got to finish posting . . . ]

    There are other issues I discovered regarding Win8, as I have become more familiar with that OS, that will affect everyone’s use of Podium on Win8. The most important one is the requirements for running Win8 on any computing device. The rock bottom system requirements for running the OS alone — before any consideration of DAW or DAW-related software — is 4 gigs of RAM and CPU strength of 1.5 gigs. Again, this is rock bottom, meaning that Microsoft would rather the user have something beyond these limits. Now, I think most of us can cover the 4 gigs for memory. That’s common these days. For CPU, I know for a fact that many users would be hard-pressed to make this amount available mainly for the OS. What this means is that many PC owners will need to purchase a new machine when (or before) they start running Win8. Suddenly, we are talking about a year or two before everyone has a PC powerful enough to run the new OS comfortably with all their favourite audio goodies. My own PC would be able to run Win8 and then probably have enough left over so as not to max out over the full digital audio chores and have no problems, yet I am close enough to worry and to know that this PC will not be running Win8 under any circumstances. I would hit the ceiling on very large projects most likely. This is yet another very good reason Podium on Win8 should be put off for at least another year, since virtually none of us will be able to use it. And let’s face it, we all know quite a group of DAW-users (several here) who still love their Windows Vista and will not be leaving that OS unless absolutely forced, and you and I need to respect that choice.

    Meanwhile, it would be to Zynewave’s advantage to attend to its own product, remove the several shortcomings and become better prepared to play with the ‘big boys’. I will be very blunt here by saying it won’t matter to me or any serious musician or recording tech which gadget it runs on if it can’t handle what I consider certain basic chores, namely MIDI foremost in the various features needed under this subject. There are a couple of other features, too, that I hope to get covered here.

    Some of you may recall me asking not very long ago, “MIDI improvements? Which ones? And why?” Since then, I’ve had ample time to follow up on this and understand the many requests for better MIDI features. Aside from, I believe, ‘timestretching’, MIDI features were the overwhelming top requests and the major subject on our many lists. Yes, and although someone wanted a slightly improved MIDI editor or piano roll, and a few of us really need a virtual MIDI keyboard added, the MIDI requests truly boil down to two ultimately important features that are needed right now and not sometime later next year: MIDI routing and MIDI effects.

    #21864
    michi_mak
    Participant

    i think the main problem is that there is no roadmap / clear vision communicated by Zynewave. new features pop up in no particular order ( at least me can’t see any plan behind order of feature implementations ). i’d trade unicode for better midi in a heartbeat…
    i still believe in a poll for feature requests and addition of these requests into new versions of Podium!
    but it seems to be highly unlikely to happen

    #21865
    The Telenator
    Participant

    [Believe it or not, I am about to get to this lack of a road map, as I wrote all this earlier. I still believe in polling, too — see main lead paragraph. I need to enter the rest of this but feel free to add to or clarify any of my points.]

    The reasoning that MIDI must be addressed, and fixed, and soon, is obvious: There is currently NO MIDI routing on Podium. MIDI can’t come in from any source, can’t be sent out to any receiving software (aside from Reaper perhaps, but some other DAWs do not take to ReWire very well or at all yet, besides it is rather tricky opening each host correctly to set this up, a second screen almost a requirement). Add to this perhaps the biggest insult to MIDI, that it is marooned and isolated within Podium — can’t do a darn thing but render it and call it a day. Can’t tell what effects added to the track will sound like until bounce is done, and if unhappy with basic bounce track under the effect, have to GO BACK re-record or re-assign new VSTi, do it all over again, hope your second bet was wiser than your first. This is grinding me right to a pulp. I spend more time ‘fiddling’ with things than I ever do getting WORK done. I am a worker, not a fiddler at heart.

    With MIDI routing and MIDI effects we users could then solve some of Podium’s other MIDI issues. As is now, it won’t allow anything new or novel. Runs fine with almost all plugins, except the ones that would liberate it from its straight jacket. I’ve spent a week total trying to set up my own MIDI virtual keyboard. Podium won’t have anything to do with it — it even changes its own rules when I get inventive. Won’t take MIDI IN where it asks for MIDI IN, It won’t let me run virtual cables, even uninstalled them just to show me how much it doesn’t like the idea! I believe in playing by the rules, but weirdly Podium either does not or changes them with each new attempt. ‘Source’ should be an input for any, but it’s not even an input half the time. It offers to send ‘MIDI Out’ but then won’t when I try it. It not only needs MIDI routing added; it needs the whole In/Out affair overhauled. Yes, stuff flows up from bottom to top –except when it doesn’t. All of this only adds to the lack and wasted efforts. This is perhaps the Number One thing improvements to Podium need to be about — MIDI connectivity.

    Instead of spending all this effort trying to run cables and so on, this energy should be spent creating. Meanwhile and during, I ought to be able to run MIDI and audio where I dang please. Heck with the filing system, at least they go where they’re told — and they actually ARE a system. MIDI is not.

    Look, if all of you are hearing about MIDI needs in Podium from me, a dinosaur rocker who swore he would never touch MIDI in recording a mere two years ago, then I think you can understand how important these MIDI feature improvements to Podium truly are. MIDI is extremely important these days in so many genres, even old-style blues, and it needs to be brought up to par so it can get full use.

    #21866
    michi_mak
    Participant

    plus some more midi editing options too!!!

    #21867
    kim_otcj
    Participant

    I guess I can’t really relate, because I mostly do survive using Podium as my only DAW.

    On a few rare occasions in the past, I’ve fired up Sony Acid to edit a loop I wanted to use. But I’m getting away from doing even that, because all the time stretching and pitch-shifting ruins the quality of a sample and leaves weird artefacts behind.

    #21868
    The Telenator
    Participant

    Part of what has helped shape my view is my growing familiarity with Reaper, my ‘backup’ DAW. I used to joke that you could plug a toaster into it and get your breakfast while recording, but that joke is nearly true. Reaper is so flexible I can practically plug anything into anything and get acceptable sound on a track. It even has a ‘force’ option which allows a user connections and routing that ought not exist or work in the first place. If nothing else, this tells me that improvements to routing cannot be too all-consuming to add. It seems as though every DAW has radically changed them in the last year or so.

    Now, clearly, Reaper is the exception, as most other DAWs do not bend over backwards like this, but my recent research shows that very many are close and some getting closer all the time. Just for example, Reaper will accept every one of the 5 or 6 virtual keyboards I tried. Yet it doesn’t need one because it has its own, like almost every other system out there, including many plugins that could use them. In Podium, it refuses all except one, but then forces me to play and record ‘blind’ — without sound, because with the keyboard in the source slot I cannot add a synth or other VSTi to hear what I am doing. Here is another potential user fix to a Podium problem that was nixed by Podium itself. It almost appears sometimes that Podium does want to be fully functioning. How could this be?!?! Efforts to use the half dozen virtual cables that are available and widely used were equally disastrous, as I explained above. With them, I could have put the keyboard on another track and used it to drive a VSTi ‘next door’ and record there perhaps — or on both tracks! What a notion! I have many plugins with multiple Ins and Out, just like touted and explained on a Podium tutorial, but they are ALL useless because Podium won’t let me connect them anywhere. What a total waste of the designer’s efforts.

    It is not too much to state that MIDI capabilities need drastic yet basic improvements. Currently, I am doing the same as some of you — dragging and copying my files back and forth between two hosts — and wasting an awful lot of time and energy in the process. This is my only option right now, aside from either accepting the limitations of Podium and therefore to my musical creativity, or throwing my hands up in the air in frustration and moving on to a more completely equipped system, like some have already and some have vowed to now or soon. I know there are some users who switch their DAW every time they find one tiny thing wrong with any of them, but I assure you that is not the case here. This is about getting work done — and hopefully with a degree of efficiency. Not long ago at all, the market was in a state where there were many features missing from many DAWs, but that time is now passed. Almost all systems come with a standard list of features that I believe most of you could rattle off from memory. Naturally, this is a big reason that so many of our recent feature lists were very similar!

    #21869
    The Telenator
    Participant

    I also think what is adding to this growing disappointment is the fact that even far lower systems — Audacity 2.0 being a perfect example — are already equipped with such things as dithering, their own crude and odd form of time stretch, and the ability to convert audio into many other file formats and export beyond pcm WAV. And these were in place long before the new 2.0 version was released.

    I am also seeing lately another similarity, in this case among many Podium users themselves: great efforts and discussions about workarounds, frustration at Podium’s limitations, and/or a slow migration out once they get past the charm of the UI and discover that things don’t work quite as they appear they should. And these shortcomings are brought here, discussed, but then left unfixed, and fixes left unscheduled, and fixes not promised, often after many and lengthy discussions.

    When I restarted this most recent discussion of features in Podium I already knew fairly well what would be requested…. My larger goal was to encourage a reconsideration of priorities for Podium design and development during the process. While I still like the concept of Podium on a tablet PC, at the same time I rate it as a rather low priority, because I really cannot see how it would benefit any one of the currently licensed, paying users of Podium. Even more, Podium on a tablet without a truly meaningful features update sound more like insult to injury. It will only result in the ability to take our limitations with us in a more portable manner — something I don’t even want to think about.

    This brings me to our final and probably most important point regarding this lack of significant improvements. While I do recall one or maybe two users desiring the Mackie control upgrade, I do not know nor have I read of as much as one person who has been pushing for the Win8 tablet idea. Where did this come from? Why were users not queried about this beforehand? Where is the poll? What gives here?

    In a new thread started by infinitoar, he points out something very important taken from the basic mission statement on the Zynewave Homepage. I will quote it here:

    “Software updates are released frequently with a user-driven development cycle.”

    I’m sorry, but I do remember reading that assurance when deciding whether to buy Podium and invest my efforts in learning the workings of this system, and I have been around since early last December and have read extensively in this forum, even going back some to get oriented. So, could someone please tell me when any of this has happened? These user-driven updates? Unicode, was I out of town for that one too? When was that poll about the tablet PC? I’m willing to bet that not one of you have the foggiest clue what features in which decade are ever going to be added, do you? I thought so.

    I’m sorry again, but I see no user-driven anything going on here or even back the several months and threads I have followed. I see no promises, assurances, suggestions of fixes being executed in any sort of scheduled manner. I do see that users have been thoroughly polite in not demanding deadlines or promises of actual dates. But would it be too much to ask if we could be informed of which season the things we have repeatedly asked for might be accomplished? If something is going to be too hard or take much time, I think an explanation would suffice. I really don’t think that would be unreasonable.

    Could we also ask that things NOT WANTED by users be set aside until we see the things we really do need? I think there are between six and ten items we can all agree on, perhaps starting with that nasty MIDI business that seems to be at or near the hearts and tops of everyone’s list? In fact, how about some promise of a total MIDI package? Routing, effects, editor upgrade, virtual keyboard, etc? What else am I missing in this department, chaps?

    You see, the whole tablet business was never asked for and would be extremely time-consuming and of no aid to current users for a long long time. I think it might benefit rich kids whose parents give them $300 cell phones or $800 tablets. Would anyone agree? So in this ambitious project I do see the “driven” part of Zynewave’s pledge. But I haven’t personally seen any of the “user” side of it since I arrived here, yet I do feel that we users have done our part of the work by identifying important needs. Let’s see now if we can have the “user” part put back into the “user-driven,” shall we?

    Cheers!

    #21870
    The Telenator
    Participant

    @kim: Well, “mostly” is how you put it, so I guess you’re just a matter of degrees. Furthermore, I want to do more than just “survive.” I want to have the freedom to use full creativity and not be constantly hampered by a rather large pile of lack. Perhaps you don’t wish to do much with the MIDI besides plug in and hit record. One can only guess, but it is clear there are many here who wish to use the full potential of a software they have invested so much effort in learning all the in and outs (no pun intended I believe)!

    #21871
    The Telenator
    Participant

    Comments, anyone else? So . . . are Podium feature upgrades “user-driven”? If so, where? When? What is the nature of the relationship, if any? Examples?

    #21872
    adimatis
    Participant

    I think:

    1. User requests were more important some years ago, when probably Frits had more time available or more inclination to keep Podium more updated. Nowadays, due to other commitments probably, not so much time seems to be alocated to this.

    2. Whatever updates are released, in my view they are meant to give the feeling of an “frequently updated” software. Not to say they are not useful, but indeed they are less relevant to what the actual users want and they are rather more “cosmetic”…

    3. Podium is a simple DAW. This has advantages and disadvantages. This simplicity in use is probably its’ biggest plus, and such a nice, clean and slick interface is wonderful. But I don’t think this really prevents the feature set to be complete, elaborate and relevant.

    4. About the simplicity – yes, I also can survive with Podium, as it gives the user the basic features, at ease. Record, add effects, do the volumes, render. All these at great ease and without much fuzz. But, it’s such a pity that many “less basic” but normal for today’s DAWs features are missing. Such a pitty!!!

    5. Depending on the artistic needs, Podium is not enough on it self. For me, personally, I will need to stay with Free, as I cannot justify paying the money, as I have to use some other programs too. And this frustrates me immensely, as I’d LOVE being able to only use Podium.

    6. The story of Podium is pretty much the story of all software that was designed by talented people (and Frits is, no doubt) and developed almost like a personal challenge. Sooner or later they either disappear, are bought by corporations and often killed, or simply stay at the stage of unmatured hobby work. Podium is more than that for sure, but not by much really.

    7. I have great respect and admiration for Frits work. I want to emphasize this on each opportunity, as I think he should know that many of us, if not all, are greatful and privilleged to be able to use his DAW. And this is a sincere statement. IT’S JUST TOO BAD THIS IS NOT QUITE ENOUGH. If I, for instance, will decide at one point that I have to move on, it’s not because I don’t like Podium, but it is because it is keeping me half full, half hungry – and that I hate!!!

    8. Looking forward new Podium releases. I am looking forward Time-Streatching feature. Much awaited. Frits NEEDS to do it! And another several more.

    9. Yes, why not a list of future updates? Frits, in my experience, having such a list, especially a public one, will help me keep my word and do it. I bet it would do the same to you!

    10. 😉

    #21873
    michi_mak
    Participant

    i never noticed this “user-driven” joke …
    i stopped recommending Podium because of a lack of future / perspective and i won’t renew my license unless there are some dramatic changes ( which i violently doubt tbh ).

    i always requested some kind of roadmap but Frits refuses such things until now – he even doesn’t reveil upcoming features and topics he’s investigating…
    lack of communication is a real showstopper!!!

    #21874
    Infinitoar
    Participant

    You see here’s where I stand with this:

    On Frits defense:
    -He is only one “man”. Not a whole team, so updates can’t be frequent and take a lot of time to make. Even customizing current features can be a big task.

    -Users wanting features from every which way. If users agreed on a common feature, he could focus on that, then the next “greatest requested feature” he could then do, and so on.

    -Besides Podium development his personal life. Although we do not know much about it, he is clearly a hard working developer and businessman. I have some old friends who are those as well and that alone is a very busy and daunting task for one person.

    -20 years of hardwork goes a long way, and maybe he didn’t really think Podium would be this big once he started o focus more on it. Now with such a major rush of people coming here and asking for this and that, it can be chaotic.

    But, in the “People’s Defense”:

    -Features that are common in DAW’s is a given of what overall direction you need to take your product. Even if you don’t want to directly copy the direction of a popular DAW, still let users determine the most important feature and work on developing that.

    -About not having a team of devs is understandable but will not be “tolerable” with most of your customers or potential customers. This is a “big” drawback and as I’ve said before, any musician serious about his/her work will not wait around for one man to make a important update they need, they will look elsewhere and not only that, give your product very bad overall overview. So then it’s less exposure or even less people wanting to try your product[that being Podium] because of “word-of-mouth”. This could ultimately crush the business of Podium, and I’m sure Frits does not want that. But, he needs to make compromises soon, “or else”….

    -Users are screaming for updates since Podium became a potential serious DAW product within the DAW market. Neglecting “important” updates for users not only is bad for them, it’s bad for Frits, and it’s bad for business. Not even as much as giving them a update or progress of the update/feature is a “no no” for business. I thought a “percentage system” on updates and features would be most exciting and very rewarding to those wondering about the “pipeline and/or progress” of a requested feature or update. Of course Frits ignored it, but I expected that. And sadly I used to think being in contact with the creator was a good thing…now…I don’t think it’s as “rewarding” as I thought… 🙁

    -This may be a serious offense to Frits, hell, I may get scolded for this, but I’m going to say it. Pointing out your “20+ years of hardwork” I’m starting to believe it’s an excuse, or a way to push back any progress or effort you want to put towards certain updates, or major opportunities for Podium. I’m sure like the devs for Kristal Audio Engine who were acquired[bought] by PreSonus, you’ve had offers to make joint deals with other software companies. And not even to that extreme, you have had offers from other people[devs] to help you develop Podium to make workflow go easier for you, but you declined or asked them[which I’ve seen you ask this before Frits], “How much do you think 20+ years of work is worth?” Personally I think you should stop mentioning that, and try to at least see both sides of the “business coin”. As long as you keep ownership, name, and everything you can with the program and just have people help you[and of course you credit them, and so on] I’m sure things would look up for you Frits, but now, who knows…

    In the end of all this, the direction of Zynewave Podium is up to Frits, NOT US. We have to learn that. What he put up front is just words, but as I’ve learned in my life, actions speak louder than words do. And for the time I’ve been here, his actions have gotten less and less and “less”. And as I always point out, “NO” serious musician will wait around for him, only leave and give Podium bad reviews, feedback, and overall bad “name”. Which in turn hurts Frits and his program, and even his business. I’m not saying all musicians will leave absolutely horrible feedback but, some will. But it’s up to him, not us, and for those serious musicians who want to stick with Podium, as much as you deny it, deep down, you know it’s true. I know it is. To me Podium is “baby steps” to the big DAW’s out there. And at the state it’s at now, nothing more. Telenator put it perfectly when he basically said there are more “workarounds”[or “band-aids”] for this DAW than anything else. This is bad, because eventually people will see that, and not like it one bit.

    Anyway for now this concludes my rant…

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