adimatis.
adimatis@Infinitoar wrote:
-Users wanting features from every which way. If users agreed on a common feature, he could focus on that, then the next “greatest requested feature” he could then do, and so on.
I would almost agree with you 😉 if there was ONE post of Frits asking this in the last year or so. To my knowledge, all the latest development of Podium was entirely Frits’ decision.
@Infinitoar wrote:
In the end of all this, the direction of Zynewave Podium is up to Frits, NOT US.
Now with that I have to agree, even though I don’t agree – with the policy that is!
The Telenatorinfinitoar, let me just take on the two first points you made, as I believe that will suffice.
The ‘only One Man’ defense: I used to agree somewhat with that thinking, but recently I believe Frits has himself proved this completely false. The conversion to tablet PC would be a huge undertaking. If he can make time for this, he can instead take on — as I pointed out above — the mere 6 to 10 features the vast majority of us can agree we need. The “only One Man’ argument is a total FAIL.
The ‘users requests are all over the place’ defense. This argument, too, is a total FAIL. If you have been following the recent threads that addressed this specifically — the ‘list’ thread and the ‘poll’ thread — then you know this argument is false. The most outstanding feature of the list thread was that requests were remarkably similar. Yes, some lists were more complete than others, and as I pointed out there were a very small number of unique ones, but it is more than clear now that those users who took the time and effort to speak up were asking for almost identical features needed. I have no sympathy for users who want anything far different who did not participate, since the discussion is edging on 3 or 4 weeks now. To suddenly chime in now to negate all we’ve discussed or make a case for features far different is certainly allowable but also a bit immature. I mean, were you on a mountaintop vacation? Well, if so, make that argument. To sum up, clearly NO, we know what’s needed and 99.9% is nothing you won’t find on any other good DAW.
I’ve tried to look this matter over from every possible angle and defense before posting last night. I find that the arguments against simply don’t ‘wash’ any way you use them. I know you were playing devil’s advocate here and turned it all around at your post’s 2nd half, but I need to attack the falsehoods and logic of what you began with, because those are all anyone can try to use to nix feature improvements.
I am not a dev. I do not code. I have not seen the source code for Podium. However, if there is only one thing all those nearly useless years at the University taught me, it is how to do good research. I can give you a pretty fair estimate of what it takes to get the various jobs done. We’re not asking here for something like taking a huge pile of 32-bit software and suddenly taking it to 64. Also, note that many needed features could be added piecemeal without disrupting everything else. I’d suggest, though, that the MIDI features would be more convenient if done as a whole ‘package’ to save running over the same old ground many times. This would be a significant bit of work, yet less than piecemeal in the long run, and less work than compressing the snot out of everything to fit into a tablet existence.
I stand by the review I’ve posted and its several points, and I further suggest that anyone who wishes to take on a varying viewpoint do his research well and present facts as a defense. Personal protests consisting of emotions, whining, the ‘I wouldn’t use that, I only record church choirs or accordions live’ is simply not going to cut it here. Many of us have paid into this with not only our cash but great efforts spent in mastering this software. Either this should follow the ‘rules’ as they stand, or they need to be changed to reflect some other reality. Again, as they stand, it is:
“Software updates are released frequently with a user-driven development cycle.”
That’s the software I invested in, not Crystal or Audacity.
GuaranathAs stated elsewhere I am a new Podium Free user. Even in my first couple of months of use I too have played the Midi workaround shell game… so I am with that being the top immediately necessary area of improvement.
I have stated elsewhere my empathy for Zynewave’s entry into tablets and ios… Let me say from the outset that I would, without a doubt, upgrade to Podium Full before buying the ios app because of the undeniable limitations of audio production on a tablet or a phone. However, ios is large and quickly growing marketplace and it is not just a matter of making a toy for the kids on inferior hardware. Such a product could serve as a ‘gateway drug’ to lure in new users to the real Podium product. (Also note that, at least on ios, developers do not charge annual subscription fees; so I have questions about the long-term financial gain in this market – though it is a very large market.)
All that being said, if Podium is crippled by the lack of what you all have identified as some very basic, standard features… what is the point of luring in new users – Podium will be just another stepping stone along the way.
Also one observation… how many Podium Free users might upgrade if the top x feature requests were addressed? I know I would likely upgrade just to not play the Midi workaround game. Would other free users upgrade, even if their top requests were not immediately met, because of the show of good faith?
InfinitoarTelenator I only wanted to push out the factors of looking at both sides of the coin.
There are people in the world that never look at both sides of the coin when they are upset, and I will admit even I don’t sometimes, so maybe you need to backtrack on what you said and look at what my post really “meant”. The simple fact IS, Zynewave is “ONE. MAN.”. Especially since you admitted to have never coded before you would not know the amount of time and sacrifice he would have to make to balance his LIFE and Podium Development. I know for a fact he is not in Podium Development full-time because it is NOT making him enough money. Before you start criticizing my post about Zynewave’s Defense vs. People’s Defense[maybe I should have named it “My defense against Frits” since apparently I don’t represent the common cries of what people want] you should look at the overall meaning of the post.
Also you came from a highly rated DAW company, Steinberg’s Cubase, to come here and expect something “more”? To me that is a bit unintelligent and very immature also. And I’ve been here since you joined and you bought the full version rather FAST. You didn’t extensively test it to know it’s true limitations or anything. So “now” you find the true nature of the development of Zynewave Podium and now you flip sides? 1st you were with Podium now you are against the development cycle and the program itself? Maybe you should go back to Cubase or Reaper and see if it makes you happy.[which it won’t, even you said every DAW has it’s problems, which is true]Because as most people have done, they have extensively used the “Free” version to see if it is worth it, and either stayed free or stupidly [rushed]paid for unlocking: Multi-Core processing, and ReWire. Wow. *waves hands excitingly* Because in reality that is “all you get”.
And talking about total “FAIL”, as I said above you came from CUBASE. Cubase is not driven by “one man coding person”, Cubase[Steinberg] has “team members and developers”, Zynewave does not.
And let me get this straight for all who read this:
For 20+ years did you develop a DAW? No.
Do you live the exact lifestyle or KNOW the lifestyle of Frits? No.
Then technically no one, not even me, has the right to tell him what he needs to do. For all we know he could be a workaholic, working around the clock, barely getting any rest, and trying to find time to develop things for Podium. All we can do is submit our frustrations and either move on or stick behind him.[find workarounds]
Accusing me of playing “The Devil’s Advocate”, I really don’t care what you call me or accuse me of, I say what is on my mind, and could care less who doesn’t like it. I’ll keep posting and you’ll keep reading. That’s the idea of a forum. Maybe if you get rid of your apparent “Bi-Polarness” maybe we can get along, since I’m “playing Devil’s Advocate”.
And no I wasn’t on a mountaintop vacation, I had to sacrifice paying for the internet due to personal life changes in my life. Maybe you have a steady income and a decent job, but I don’t. And I didn’t negate anything, I go by what commonly is going on, and that is, the feature requests are in total chaos, with no huge mass all voting on one important thing that needs to be done. It’s this here, that there, this, that, and the other here.
You paid for a program with hopes high. And also obviously wanted a reason to escape the fact that you were unhappy with Cubase because they didn’t do what YOU wanted them to do, they did what they wanted to do. And now you here, preaching again, the same thing. Only it’s more personal since it’s one man doing it, and like before, history is repeating itself, your at another DAW, and your unhappy with because it’s not doing what you want it to do, it’s doing what Frits WANTS IT to do.
Here’s what I’d do. Move on. My older brother taught me that and I carry it with me to this day: “If something is wrong and you can’t fix it, and your getting frustrated and upset with it? Leave it alone. Maybe come back to it later.” That is why I am getting PreSonus Studio One[Producer]. I see my rants and submitted frustrations won’t be addressed here or fixed, so I’ll move on to something I’ve done extensive research on, and since it went “free” I’ve been messing with ever since, now I have the artist edition[version 2 I might add], and I’m messing more with that, and now 100$ crossgrade option, and I’ve signed up at the forum. Not only that I’ve been going to Guitar Center playing around with it, and looking at many YouTube tutorials. [something Podium ALSO lacks greatly] If that eventually upsets me, I’ll move on to Ableton Live, since for some odd reason there has been an “increase” in Ableton Live users.
Anyway I’m done here, the moral of this huge rant? Start seeing both sides of the coin, not just “your frustrated side”.
Or.
Move on.
The Telenatorinfinitoar, don’t think my last post was directed at YOU. Far from it. Maybe read what I wrote again (e.g., devil’s advocate and all).
But since you put those two points up top where anyone scanning quickly and not reading in detail would still see them, I jumped on them because they have previously been excuses I’ve read in the forum. So don’t get all on the defensive — I was only going after those points, not you . . . and I saw how you turned it around at the end.
Okay, but you’ve brought up a third common excuse now: This sacrifice and hardship nonsense. Look, all jobs are work, time, sacrifice, and I might add to that the fact that designing software is a heck of a lot better work (especially with no boss or no deadlines) than tonnes of other jobs out there.
So I don’t buy this sacrifice nonsense for one second. Let’s all get off this sanctimonious BS and get real here.
He’s charging money for this thing. In a year or so I’ll have to pay again. So will the rest of us paid users. (At some $50, I might add that there is no excuse for using something for free more than 30 days or so that someone has put real work into. Any kid can come up with that if he wants a new bike, even if it comes from flipping burgers. I pay for the things I use whenever possible, but I expect them to perform properly too.)
There is a fair amount of prestige being known worldwide as a designer, the owner of an online business, the maker of rather well-received pro audio software system, having the potential to win awards and be written up in journals and magazines. If you go re-read his homepage remarks, you will see that he is doing this full-time, not trying to balance this with some factory job or teaching gig. Trust me, I’ve had much tougher work and a very demanding career that I got the heck out of as soon as I had piled up a retirement pension and could return to music full-time.
No, I’m not a coder and I don’t like programming but I’ve done it (years ago in the stone age). I know enough to do the math on a proposed project and have a rough idea of how many lines of code it’s going to take to get there. The advantage of working on your own proprietary software is that you know inside and out (or at least should!) how its structured and what a new change should affect all around. Some things can be hard to predict and programs seem to take on a life of their own, hence potential bugs. But that’s part and parcel.
I say, “if you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen.” There’s one of the pieces of code I live my life by. While I’ve complained sometimes about crappy gigs and the like, It’s always been either just to get it off my chest or for the wry humour it contains. I’ve had musicians in bands whine constantly, and I usually turn to them at some point and ask, Why on earth are you a working musician if everything involved bothers you so much — maybe you should be a plumber, aye?
I hope you see my point. Sorry if you felt I was directing my comments at you, but I’m not backtracking anything, especially in this thread. I’d suggest that music is one of the worst places for a thin-skinned person to try to make a living. You’ll get eaten alive. At the same time I like to joke around, too — I’m not all business all the time. But I’ve got to get some stinking work done here; some two months total since November has been tied up horsing around with these Podium shortfalls.
Either we get some assurances of improvements and soon, or Podium is going to end up as just a glorified, pretty-plaything audio editor. I’m considering only using it further for mixing/mastering, because it’s way too limited and inflexible as is for modern recording techniques. I’ll make that decision this week, and if so, I most likely won’t be renewing my license; I’ll simply keep the last update when it expires.
Now . . . may we all get off this and back to the meat and potatoes here? We need more serious upgrades and less sidetracking.
kingtubby@The Telenator wrote:
If you go re-read his homepage remarks, you will see that he is doing this full-time, not trying to balance this with some factory job or teaching gig.
If you’re referring to this:@Frits wrote:
Since 2005 I have worked full-time on the development of Podium…
then I’m pretty sure that isn’t the case at the moment (probably should update that info) and Podium is currently being developed on a part-time basis. If you’d been around a few years back, you’d have seen updates being churned out far more frequently than they are now.
For what it’s worth, I’ve been ‘on board’ since the pre version 1 days and have watched it grow into what I find to be the most comfortable creative environment for me, and I’ve tried most of the alternatives out there. Granted, there are some areas that need attending to, but I can accept that even if they don’t happen soon it still works as it is, but, hey, I’m not a ‘pro’ just a bedroom hobbyist…
michi_makover here Frits is talking about 3.1.3 and some new features which were requested by users …
but it’s strange that he does not speak up here ( at least until now )
Conquistador@michi_mak wrote:
over here Frits is talking about 3.1.3 and some new features which were requested by users …
but it’s strange that he does not speak up here ( at least until now )
I am guessing Frits wisely does not want to get into a needless fight / confrontation with his customers 😉
@The Telenator wrote:
Okay, but you’ve brought up a third common excuse now: This sacrifice and hardship nonsense. Look, all jobs are work, time, sacrifice, and I might add to that the fact that designing software is a heck of a lot better work (especially with no boss or no deadlines) than tonnes of other jobs out there.
So I don’t buy this sacrifice nonsense for one second. Let’s all get off this sanctimonious BS and get real here.
Hi Telenator,
I can understand a need for more features as I have a list of my own but comments like yours above will not make Frits (or any dev want to respond positively if at all).Infinitoar may have a point. If Podium is aggravating you that much then why not take a break from it for a few weeks, months or even totally until it has the features you want?
Sorry to say but you really do sound the same as your other post on this forum with a link to a Cubase thread you posted on. You were quite upset on your way out of that forum /product and appear to be heading the same way here. Of course you are entitled to your opinion and to express it here. (I am not a mod) but the tone you are hitting will not help at all. 🙂
I think that is why Frits ignored this thread. I doubt any dev will want to respond to comments like this…
“Let’s all get off this sanctimonious BS and get real here.”
I really don’t blame Frits for not responding to this thread. It might be a harsh truth to accept but…
a. Frits is one developer and has a life outside of his development time with Podium that appears to have affected his release schedule for it. This can happen to anyone and will require you to be more patient. Maybe far more patient than you are willing to be with Podium.
I doubt anyone has an issue with that. We are all different and have choices beyond Podium for DAW’s. We all have timeframes for features we want to see and likely a limit as to when it is time to move on.
b. Maybe Reaper is better at this time for you. It is more feature rich and developed faster. Not perfect but no DAW is. You have to make sacrifices for any DAW here and there. You just seem desperately unhappy with Podium.
Looking at the current pace of development I cannot realistically see Frits meeting your requests for MIDI features as quickly as you (or even others ) might want. Personally I am not even interested in those features.
I would put…
a. Copying imported files automatically (an option) into a Project folder
AND
b. Autosaving
..far above those MIDI features you mentioned. Which brings me to the issue of pleasing everyone all the time. Frits has a current roadmap (even if he has largely kept it to himself) and we just have to be patient and wait and see how he develops this DAW.
Really just take a break from Podium for a time or maybe another DAW is better for you. But some of your posts are very likely to decrease the chance of the features you want ever making their way into Podium any time soon IMO.
Sometimes a DAW just does not work out for a user. But don’t leave this forum the way you left the Cubase forum. That is not going to get the features you want in Podium, / make Frits any more likely to implement them.
Yes I would love a quicker dev schedule but if Frits can manage the current dev pace and Podium stays stable then I am happy with that. I would hate to see him rush features under pressure and things end up like the XT2 development issues that seemed to run for months on end. That was terrible.
It is slow going here. Maybe very. But if it is upsetting you that much…maybe a break from it all will help you get a new perspective on things and maybe lower your expectations a bit or just try something else. 🙂
kingtubby@Conquistador: thanks – a little sagacity never goes amiss… 🙂
ConquistadorThe TelenatorConquistador:
I really don’t know what would lead you to the assumption that I’m somehow “upset” or angry about Podium’s several shortfalls in features when compared to other DAWs as they currently are offered. Aside from my required dealings with infinitoar, a member here who commonly takes anything posted in his direction the wrong way, even misunderstanding the term ‘devil’s advocate’, everything I’ve posted above was a review of the situation we find Podium in now and the course development appears to be taking.
If I have any burning desires at all here, they would be these two: first, that Zynewave seems no longer responsive to users’ feature requests and second, that Podium could become one of the very topmost and popular DAWs available if only it would add these most requested features by users here, which are essentially the same ones you will find in all the other leading systems.
I wholeheartedly agree with you about the two features you yourself would like — some updates to the file system and autosaving, but neither of these were among ANY of the users’ requests, and therefore I couldn’t deal with them. I might add to that the fact that these two were already discussed elsewhere in threads on this forum (have a look around) and Frits has already said he intends to add autosaving. He also made some mention of changing the file situation, so I’d say both of these are moot points and perhaps why no users included them in our recent Feature Request thread.
Rather than be upset, if anything this most recent round of dealing with missing modern features has been a wonderful revelation to me and a couple of others. Suddenly now I completely understand why all pro studios, even with their choice of DAW in place, still invest in a half million dollars of hardware rack units and routing cables. As applies to us in our home studios and myself in particular, the revelation has been that I simply should not rely on one DAW to take care of all modern recording needs.
Therefore, as of last week, I was forced to relegate Podium to the role of Final Mixing/Editing and Mastering DAW, and I am now relying on Reaper to get most of the startup work done. Additionally, Ableton has been offering its Live 8 Lite for free and fully licensed (through the end of MAY 31, I should add), so several of us are now playing with that one as well.
There are indeed some similarities with my departure from Steinberg in all of this. However, there are many more dissimilarities. In this case, I have in no way lost hope over the situation at Zynewave, neither am I discontinuing my full support AND use of Podium. But my own needs must come first — I must have a DAW that is ‘up to snuff’ when it comes to modern recording techniques, able to handle most every task as I move more and more into the use of MIDI. Reaper handles all and smoothly.
There was a time when I wouldn’t even mention the virtues of other DAWs on this forum, although I have studied practically all. Personally, back then, I felt my approach was not completely truthful to other readers. That time has now passed, too. What needed to be said in my review above is what got said. Sorry, but it’s case of ‘like it or lump it’. But beyond anything else you might call it, it is the truth — based on facts and research.
I’ll close by reminding you that we all have private lives, and all of us have to fit our work within them. But business is business, and it is in no way unreasonable to suggest that the products you support — and pay for — be the best they can be. Anything less is pandering, and that what I’m seeing a small few of you attempting to pull in this discussion.
Thanks for chiming in, though. I have this forum as home page on my email browser and all I was hearing in many days was the sound or crickets here . . . and a deafening silence.
InfinitoarAlthough somehow this got on me, I will say just this-
As for me “always” misinterpreting what people say, this goes back to professionally made insults and the Internet. If your going to make a supportive comment, make one. If your going to insult someone, insult them. Beating around the bush only leads me to believe you have no real motive to say the same “insults” to someone personally, physically. And if so, then you still look like the bad guy unless its a legitimate reason to insult someone.
And believe me or not but I’m a pretty cool relaxed chilled guy in real life. Maybe of course it’s just me giving into the existing yet “non-exist” behavior around here that got me all “insane in the brain”, but in real life, overall nice guy.
But who cares about that?
Anyway-
I’ve said this in the past and as I’m typing this, I’m still regretting this,(as much as my “other” life regrets) and that is me signing up for a forum.
My thing was always: Never sign up for a forum, it’s like signing yourself into a insane asylum, you could very well become one of the patients.
Forums have horrible social interaction amongst other human beings(Youtube being basically a video form of a forum)and I believe it’s been that way for a long while. Unfortunately this is the only medium to Zynewave and I’m sure just emailing him would get tiring and he would suggest signing up anyway. Although still in much regret of signing up and making posts, maybe I were better off just cracking a DAW(but I didn’t)or using the “evaluation version” of REAPER(did but stopped after 32 days) repeatedly just to satisfy any frustration I may have had with Podium. But I’ve learned my lesson and now I shall not(try) to repeat history yet again.
So what is this? A goodbye? Yes. You all can rejoice and cheer! No need to worry about me posting here anymore(or anywhere else) nagging you all, becoming a over-emotional, angry, “taking things in my direction the wrong way” person, because I “myself” have proven one theory right and that is for “me”, forums are bad. So it’s time I sign myself out of the “Zynewave Asylum” and believe that I can be a “positive member of the Internet society”.(that would a funny video series…guy or girl who can’t stop posting on forums and give in to the emotions that rise for them and yada yada, heh heh)
Anyway make as many posts as you all want about me, I will not respond. I’m off for good and if I have a serious issue with Frits, I’ll leave the “emotion out”, email him, and describe my problem(or ideas) and that’s all. Best of luck to everyone here, and somehow even though I don’t think people would believe me I will “type this” anyway and mean it:
“I apologize for any rude and disruptive behavior I have displayed here on the forum. Therefore to refrain from any further behavioral issue here I will remove myself completely from here, but my posts may remain.”
So. That is all.
GuaranathI am a bit surprised by the lackadaisical attitude of the customer base here. There is plenty of software in this world that is made to suit a developers needs or is just a hobby project, much of it is free, open-source, or donation-ware and in these cases development is not “customer-driven”. This however is a paid suite of software and I think customers have every right critique and advocate for updates in the software. And it would seem on some level that Frits agrees since he has not blocked this thread, despite numerous references to and suggestions for other software.
On reading Telenator’s critique of the software, I see that it is born out of two things: frustration and an essential love for a piece of software the he would like to see improved. I do not see any whining or bemoaning… and frankly if someone was just going to complain about something why would they bother with such a detailed and in-depth review.
I am not sure how this goes in the rest of the world, but where I come from constructive criticism is very, very important in terms growth and development (in whatever area of life) and those with sufficiently thick-skin and possessed of some humility always stand to gain from a incisive, well-intentioned critique.
I can empathize with Frits not wanting to come on here and say, “I will be adding x, y or, z”. If he did people would start bothering him about when is that update coming and whining that their promised feature was not included in the latest update. However, even a simple “Thank you all for your input, Zynewave wave will be considering these feature requests for future updates” would be miles ahead of the dead air in this thread. Even the most generalized road-map could help contextualize the future, e.g. “Zynewave intends to develop Podium further as mixing and mastering environement” or “Live audio processing environment” or whatever to give folks a general idea of the future.
I am not a paying customer so I will not make requests, perhaps only suggestions; I am very appreciative of what Podium Free provides and have no right to make requests until I shell out. However, seeing hearing that this software is “customer-driven” and then seeing customers driving around in circles is a bit discouraging.
adimatis@Infinitoar wrote:
And if so, then you still look like the bad guy unless its a legitimate reason to insult someone.
@Infinitoar wrote:
So it’s time I sign myself out of the “Zynewave Asylum”
Would I take this as you called me crazy?
Would I take it that you are the bad guy then?
😉
As a general philosophical statement, we have to aknowledge we are EXTREMELLY limited in communication on a forum. The simple written words can be interpreted (and often are) in the worst way possible, without even being intented for such a purpose…
Let alone the difficulties for those who do not natively speak english…
On top of everything, at times it seems we want to create conflicts, to see insults and offences where there aren’t any… probably to make us feel alive or something. Why is that? Human nature…? Maybe – still, I think we rather take something negatively, in stead of giving credit to the “offender” and take whatever good we can from it and move on.
Anyway, the discussion is about something else.
Just as Guaranath, I am not a paying customer, but I am delighted to be able to use Podium Free. And I am greatful for that. Whatever improvements I think are needed, is simply because I like Podium so much and I’d like to be able to rely on it fully. I am not too vocal, as I did not pay. But most certainly, I am hopeful that Podium WILL catch up with the rest of DAWs and stay relevant for today’s customers.