Topic: Starting work on control surface support

This topic has 28 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 16 years, 9 months ago by H-man.

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July 15, 2007 at 14:02 #10316

Zynewave
Keymaster

@H-man wrote:

If sitll relevant, I would be happy to test the BCF2000 in Mackie emulation mode on both systems.

Hi,

The first beta didn’t work for swindus, so I’m currently changing the system for auto-detection of control surfaces. I’ll email you a new beta later today.

July 15, 2007 at 19:27 #10319

Zynewave
Keymaster

To help with the testing, I’ve created a new “Control Surfaces” chapter in the guide:

http://www.zynewave.com/wiki/doku.php?id=guide:control_surfaces

This must be the first time a feature is described in the guide, before it is available in a release 😮

July 16, 2007 at 14:11 #10320

H-man
Participant

Okay Frits, faders go up, faders go down, faders go up, faders go down, faders …you get the idea. woot!

Note that things didn’t work right away so here was the sequence I used in the end (nothing special here, just a sure fire way of getting it working) 😉

1. Boot the BCF in to MC C mode and exist Global Parameters
2. Launch Podium
3. Create new Project (not really necessary)
4. Create new arrangement and throw in some plugins and activate midi-in on VSTi track
5. Check midi/Audio interfaces (see pic)

6. Turn on Monitor (Activate Monitor) and the faders should jump to life!

Note that Mute, Solo, Rec etc. all seemed to be working fine as well.

I guess the above sequence seems a little banal however like I said I couldn’t get the thing working on the first few tries and even ended up trying the other emulation modes such as LC (Logic) etc.

Eventually I set the BCF back to MC C, went through the sequence above, hit the monitor button and ZIP!! go the faders and I’m not too proud to say I jumped a little (the BCF is a little noisy) .

Oh well, good result as far as I can tell so far however given the overall quality and stability of everthing else in Podium I probably should do some more testing.

Anyone out there with a control surface (supporting Mackie Em) is gonna dig this 😀

July 16, 2007 at 17:11 #10322

Zynewave
Keymaster

I’ve started a new chapter in the guide, explaining the Mackie control in detail:

http://www.zynewave.com/wiki/doku.php?id=guide:mackie_control

The “arrangement selection mode” explains why the BCF will not be active before arrangement monitoring is activated. There is a downloadable utility for BCF that simulates the Mackie LCD display, which may be a help when using BCF with Podium.

July 16, 2007 at 22:36 #10330

H-man
Participant

Yes Frits you’re right. The utility is called BCFView, it is a simple exe and has a handy ‘Always on top’ setting.

Also seems to work fine with the new implementation:

I’ve had a quick look at the additions to the wiki (so fast!) and am looking forward to more testing this evening.

One thing I particularly like about this is that all those cool VSTs/VSTis that don’t have midi support (learn midi), CM Dominator for example, are now all fully controlable from the BCF by simply adding the desired parameter to the track/mixer. 8)

July 18, 2007 at 15:34 #10335

H-man
Participant

Just a quick update on the testing with the contol surface Mackie implementation, and of course a question.

First, in the previous post I mentioned that I liked the ability to add VST Parameters for a VST Instrument and use the faders to effectively draw the automation curves. Upon using this I found that a track with several (like 3 or 4) parameter child tracks gives me a new level of control, however after a while it drives you crazy because the recorded automations have the faders dancing up and down tirelessly, especially when using looped playback.

I was going to ask if these child tracks could be ‘compacted’ so that the fader only acts on the parent track and ignores the child tracks, however I just tested it and it works already …nice.

Note that to do this you have to right-click the parent track and choose Hide Tracks in Group. Clicking the + / – on the parent (group) track tidies up the display however the BCF2000 still responds to the automation tracks.

The one question I do have relates to the recording of the automations.

First, I have noticed that you don’t have to enable record on an automation track to write events to it. Anyone can test this with a mouse or pitch-wheel. Movements on these tracks are written as events even during regular playback.

Second, I have also noticed that written events cannot be changed, once written, by using the faders. In other words, the fader will just tear out of your hand on its merry way to following the automation curve.

Sooooo …given these observations, would it be possible to introduce a Record function on the parameter tracks that would enable editing of existing automation curves from the faders?

July 19, 2007 at 01:48 #10337

Zynewave
Keymaster

Note that to do this you have to right-click the parent track and choose Hide Tracks in Group. Clicking the + / – on the parent (group) track tidies up the display however the BCF2000 still responds to the automation tracks.

Ctrl+clicking the +/- will do the same as the “Hide Tracks…” menu option.

First, I have noticed that you don’t have to enable record on an automation track to write events to it. Anyone can test this with a mouse or pitch-wheel. Movements on these tracks are written as events even during regular playback.

This is on purpose. You could say that moving faders is like drawing with the pencil in the curve editor. I dislike the Read/Write automation modes that many other hosts use.

I have also noticed that written events cannot be changed, once written, by using the faders. In other words, the fader will just tear out of your hand on its merry way to following the automation curve.

This is because the BCF does not have touch sensitive faders. The following is going into the guide later on:

Having a control surface with touch sensitive motorized faders is an advantage when you work with automation on parameter tracks. If touch sense is not supported, Podium has no way of knowing that the fader is grabbed, and so will send fader movements of any already recorded automation. This can result in motor resistance when you try to move the fader to edit the automation.

This problem could be solved by using the control surface channel record buttons as simulated touch. You would then just hold down the channel record button, which will stop the fader movements, grab the fader to edit the automation, and release the record button to simulate releasing the fader.

July 19, 2007 at 09:27 #10338

Reject
Participant

Zynewave: how extensive will the support for Mackie or emulated Mackie control be?

If you take the Mackie Universal Control for instance;

1. Will Podium be able to respond to mute/solo buttons?

2. Will the transport bar be able to send cursor-position to the control surface (ie enable the led-display on the control surface to show current position).

3. Will the jog-wheel function?

And as a side note: are you gonna implement an option to auto-follow the cursor as it plays along the tracks? I heard that a scroll function would be implemented when you drag the cursor to end of window, but will there be auto-follow too?

Cheers in advance for any answers you can supply 8)

July 19, 2007 at 09:35 #10339

Zynewave
Keymaster

1. Will Podium be able to respond to mute/solo buttons?

Yes. Already done.

2. Will the transport bar be able to send cursor-position to the control surface (ie enable the led-display on the control surface to show current position).

Yes. Already done. Can be switched between bar/beat and clock time.

3. Will the jog-wheel function?

Yes, but this is not implemented yet.

are you gonna implement an option to auto-follow the cursor as it plays along the tracks? I heard that a scroll function would be implemented when you drag the cursor to end of window, but will there be auto-follow too?

There is already an “automatic scroll” option in the view menu.

July 19, 2007 at 13:22 #10342

H-man
Participant

Hi Frits,

First, following the additions to the wiki, I have to conclude that everything detailed for the BCF2000 and Mackie Em is working. Some of the key mappings are differnt (ie. Help is factory “READ” or [Shift2] + PAN) but this is to be expected of course.

Perhaps I should take some time and detail the BCF2000 equivalent key mappings?

Also, I have forgotten about Vista for the time being as there is no Vista USB driver for the BCF available yet.

This problem could be solved by using the control surface channel record buttons as simulated touch. You would then just hold down the channel record button, which will stop the fader movements, grab the fader to edit the automation, and release the record button to simulate releasing the fader.

After yet more tampering on the BCF2000 it turns out that the fact that Parameter tracks don’t have to be Record enabled pretty much solves the problem with the non-touch sensitive faders.

To edit an existing automation curve with the BCF faders, stop the track (over the existing curve) move the fader a little up or down and start the track again. Control is given back and new events can be written.

It’s funny but it seems that even in looped playback as long as there is movement (midi data) coming from the fader, new events will be written. Leave the fader still for a second and it goes back to following the curve.

July 19, 2007 at 19:31 #10344

jcleaver
Participant

Not to hijack this thread, but is there any plans to build the control support to have it be implemented by a definition file, so that it doesn’t necessarily have to be hard-coded in? That way if someone had a different controller one might be able to download a definition file, (or create one) and have support for their control.

John

July 19, 2007 at 20:38 #10346

Zynewave
Keymaster

Perhaps I should take some time and detail the BCF2000 equivalent key mappings?

No need. I found some charts in a pdf downloaded from Behringers site.

July 19, 2007 at 20:50 #10347

Zynewave
Keymaster

@jcleaver wrote:

Not to hijack this thread, but is there any plans to build the control support to have it be implemented by a definition file, so that it doesn’t necessarily have to be hard-coded in? That way if someone had a different controller one might be able to download a definition file, (or create one) and have support for their control.

My original thought was to expand the parameter object properties with an “action” setting. This would allow configuring any type of MIDI message to start/stop and adjust gain/pan etc. and would be sufficient for supporting e.g. the BCF in standard operating mode (not Mackie emu). However, the additions to the parameter object properties would become too complex in order to allow full support for all the Mackie control features (such as the LCD display).

Later on I may add the “action” setting to allow control surface setups using simpler MIDI controllers.

July 28, 2007 at 03:34 #10468

H-man
Participant

@Myself wrote:

Also, I have forgotten about Vista for the time being as there is no Vista USB driver for the BCF available yet.

Um, have to correct myself here. The BCF2000 works fine with Vista (and with Podium running on Vista).

No driver installation required 🙂

Info from the Behringer site: http://tinyurl.com/33phtp

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