PiginiThe tempo automation in energyxt1.41 is the main reason I’m still using it, occasionaly. A smart way to handle it. Would be great to see that in podium.
Pigini+1
PiginiDid it work on tracks or as a processing like in an audio editor ?
Realtime. Assigned to the output master, it processed 12 Mix-track.
You can watch it yourself, it’s on the 12th min of that video:
http://www.sawstudio-media.com/video/SAWStudioBasic.wmv
What we need more is an “external editor” feature which allow to process selections in Soundforge or others without having to quit and restart Podium !
That’s a another good idea, it could be good for many things. Though on second thought, it could clash with the way podium handles audio (some operations being destructive, others nondestructive, external editing could mess things up in an unpredictable way).
And DirectX is now a dead format…
..and soon vst2 will no longer be supported in progs from the big guys. They want to force ppl having to buy everything again. All just for marketing reasons. Do you think vst3 plugs will be better? They are selling the same algos again in another format.
If a program supports many formats of which many ppl already own quality plugins, I see that as an advantage. Many might even switch from cubase to the small company apps like podium, because of that. The directx format itself is not bad, f.e. waves plugins are directx with a vst-wrapper.
By the way, the Sonic Foundry algo has not evolved since a lot of years, and is a very basic one.
I don’t use Sonic Foundry and don’t know its timestretch plug, can’t say anything about its quality. Just picked up that idea from the vid. Maybe it’s simple and that is the reason why it even can work in realtime.
I personally can do without that shifting stuff. But many here seem to be wanting it, some of them obviously want to use it for effects, where quality would not matter so much anyway.
But aside from that shifting/stretching thing, I think supporting as many formats as possible would pay out for podium overall.
For the simple reason that it allows better use of what one already has and might want to use in podium.
PiginiKlemperer?
The “Pro”, I had in mind was rather the console-guy who records takes and the mixing and mastering kind of pro in the studio. I was talking about using quality pitch/shift in the classical sense in a studio situation, where you would rather have the bloke playing a retake, instead of time-stretch-pitch-warping his guitar solo all around.
In short, situations where high quality precise recordings of instruments (virtual or real) or voice, would be your aim.
Taking that approach over to working with podium, would mean to favor retakes (rerenderings of corrected midi) and then rendering audio again over mangling the audio further and further.
Or in other words: In cases where time and pitch correction can be done on the midi and the audio rendered again, there is no need for the time pitch shifting stuff with the audio… and the result would be of better quality (in the classical sense)
I wasn’t thinking of effect creation, where of course, everything is allowed.
Hope I got my point better across this time. Don’t want to get into that kind of length every time. Afterall I’m not writing Wikipedia here. 😉
PiginiIt has to be done inside the sequencer though, you map a VST parameter to a CC, then when you assign an envelope track to that CC, you choose high instead of midi, on that envelope track. You will then control the parameter.
yes, I know. By “assignable midi controllers only”, I didn’t mean the resolution, I meant it does not read out the plugin controller information right away. That’s a thing I find very comfy in podium. In energyxt1.4 I have to know or try what controller controls what or do midilearn in the plugin.
PiginiYes, energyxt 1.41 is w98 compatible, I’m using it sometimes because of the multi arranger mode and the tempo automation with envelope, it does not sync with other comps though.
energyxt2.0 is not w98 compatible, but I would not want to use it anywhere anyway. Too buggy.
I never tried, but I can see no real advantage of running energyxt1.41 within podium. Since podium can’t link midi between vst, I would have to load the vst within energyxt-vst and loose podiums smarter plugin automation (in energyxt1.41 it was assignable midi controllers only).
There might be some advantages in some cases though.
Well, it’s not as if I, all of a sudden, could not work under w98 anymore. The reason I was bemoaning having sold logic5.5 was that it actually had all the features, I ever needed (plus some more). I was expecting podium to catch up and overtake it at some point in time. But now, comparing Logic5.5 with 1.97 (the version I’m now stuck with on w98), they are not on par and podium isn’t up front featurewise (ease of use is better in podium).
Actually right now, I remember why I sold Logic. I got so pissed off with that bloody dongle thing. So often I forgot to take it with me, when actually needing it on the laptop.
I’m not going to abandon podium. In the meantime I tried reaper on the xp-laptop and see no point in even testing it on w98 now, because I don’t feel like wanting to work with it. It has an excellent feature set, but does not feel right to me. (Might sound a bit esoteric, but I don’t feel as creative as in podium with reaper)
I think I will keep using podium for mobile use under xp on the laptop. …and if Frits manages to extend the whole syncing feature set to a complete and reliable master/slave MTC,SMPTE(LTC)+ “whatever-could-make-a-winxp_pc-work” with my bigger setup, I hopefully can integrate that laptop into the big home multi-pc setting at some point.
In the meantime everything else just stays as it is.
PiginiThanx for the hint, I only tried 2 versions of reaper just after the subject of dumping win98 support for podium came up. After it crashed each time I supposed their w98 support no longer existed either. Will check again if that crash bug is gone in the recent version.
Pigini@Zynewave wrote:
I’ve just released Podium 1.99. It is still compiled with VS6, so Windows compatibility is unchanged.
I guess I got excited too early about the unchanged windows 98se compatibility.
I had no time for testing earlier, just installed podium 1.99 today, and it installs alright, but after leaving the project setup and actually starting the new arrangement I get a c++ runtime error ..application requested the runtime to terminate in an unusual way. 🙁
It would have been nice to have a bugfixed final win98 version, but well …
Looks like the new developer tool puts something in the code w98 just can’t handle. It’s the same error message I get with the newer Reaper versions (started testing them when the w98 compatibility thing came up for podium). They still claim to support w98, but must have changed teir developer tool too.
Sometimes I just wish I had not sold my Logic5, it qualifies for being the dumbest thing I ever did 😥
PiginiHello Ash, good to see users with other, not so common, needs and uses for podium buying into it.
The implementation of MMC/MTC support into podium for me too helped alot in the way I prefer to work.
Extending podiums syncing capabilities might even attract more users with different backgrounds.
For that, I think, it might be a good idea to implement smpte(ltc) additionally, despite the fact that we have MTC(Master) already.
Here are a few reasons why I think that could be useful:
– many video professionals record a smpte track to audio, it’s the most reliable way and most compatible with other gear and soft.
– recording smpte as an audio track gives sample accurate timing
– since the smpte is an audio track you can build grids etc from it
– audio tracks can be im- and exported in many apps, which always works best, without having to pay attention to how well the realtime syncing between different apps or computers actually works.
– there are often more audio ins/outs left to spare than midi channels
– it might save some cpu cycles, compared to generating mtc on the fly with all the other things going on with midi (not so shure about thatone, depends on how it’s implemented, I guess)
– ..and last but not least: Reaper has it already 😉
Piginiaccording to a few coding experts (not me!) assembly language no longer has the impact it once did due to the speed of computers.
yes, but it’s neat. IMHO assembly (when done by a real master of the trade) definetely has its benefits especially for audioworks on that windows os with its dumb tasks and errands kicking in at the most inconvenient points in time, things cpu speed alone can’t fix.
in my opinion even when you are up to speed in SAW you will work slower than in Podium or Reaper.
I can imagine it after demoing saw a little. Soft , thats modelled after the way pro’s have been doing things for years with hardware, might be the best way those pros are used to, but not from a software usability point of view, when one has the chance to optimize tasks, making things faster and more user friendly, leaving the path how things were done in hardware.
Only recently I found myself staring dumbstruck at a friends computer screen trying to remember how to assign vst’s to tracks in Logic 5.
Embarassing, since I sold him that very copy only 1,5 years ago.
After working with podium it became so natural to me assigning them directly to the tracks, that I had completely forgotten that in logic it took a few clicks just to get there.
Bob L, the developer and regular user of SAW, feels 2K is a steal……he really say’s that.
It seems he is comparing it with some expensive dedicated multitracker workstations, like R-1 from Euphonix. His software with its edl and libraries etc seems to be structured like the one found in such pro gear, and I find most things in saw I’ve checked out so far are very effective and quick, when used to working with consoles. But those units are hardware, which cost a bundle to built, and they often have their own os, alot of work before it even gets considered by a broadcast industry which is prepared to pay high prices. It’s not really a fair comparison calling a software a steal only because it can do roughly the same thing and costs less, afterall it is a software with far lesser costs involved. I would not be surprised if Bob had a professional background as a developer in that industry, there are quite a few things, that strongly remind me of spectral incs audio prisma system from the nineties.
He seems to be an expert for core functionalities, an assembly engine writer and a true magician on that. He could learn a lot from Frits when it comes to gui design though. The whole gui is not very tastefully done… and oh, one really has to be prepared to click on “about” in saw 😆
edit: apart from the gui and the insane price tag, I actually have a hell of a respect for Lentini and his sawstudio after what I’ve seen so far. Just watched the vid, impressive. “very fun, very powerful” … but far too expensive, and with that kind of midi integration … well, I don’t belong to the target group.
Piginihi sam,
just had a look at sawstudio, man that’s a pricey one 😯 . I’m really a big fan of performant and unusual apps, the whole thing coded in assember, thats impressive. If the claims are true, it might be the most stable audio app with the best midi timing on winxp, … but the price tag *gulp* ….crazy. Did you spend that kind of money on your hobby, or is it your trade?
And asking an additional 300$ for that very basic midi-addon, …well that’s greedy. But the guy lives in Las Vegas, maybe that gives a completely different attitude towards money.
The whole soft reminds me a bit of the workflow in the audio prisma from Spectra Inc. (harddisk-recording system from the nineties), it surely is a very special one.
Pigini @acousmod
you completely missed my point.
I’m not against implementing pitch/time-shifting/stretching into podium in general. But I don’t like to see important features put on hold, because they don’t work on audio without pitch/time-shifting/stretching.
It’s better having them working on midi with the option to render the audio again, rather than not having them at all. Particularly, since those pitch/time-shifting/stretching algos – no matter how advanced – do not produce prime quality output when used for larger changes.
I don’t expect the implementation of pitch/time-shifting/stretching very soon, since most good algos have to be licensed for big money, I doubt there are any good free algos around (would be great, if I was wrong with that assumption, though). The other option is Frits rolls his own, which is no trivial thing to do, a probably very time consuming task.
If don’t like time/pitch/speed variations, just don’t use them
they can all be done in midi, btw.
PiginiIt seems to me that a few useful features, like thatone, only are difficult to implement as long as one expects them to work on the audio just as well as on the midi. And then for the audio, the infamous time/pitch shift would be needed, putting a hold on the whole thing.
IMHO time/pitch-shifting/stretching gets overused and is overrated mainly by hobbyists today. No pro who knows his trade would use time/pitch-shifting/stretching for anything but very small changes on material where a new take is not possible.
It was never meant to be the best choice, rather a last resort.
When the affected material is only some midi tracks rendered to audio, the best way to deal with it is apply the changes first to the midi and render the audio again. No time/pitch-shifting/stretching algo can give such good results.
I think that is the way it should be done in podium.
That approach might even make some other things easier to implement, like slaving to MTC etc.
And for audio which cannot be rerendered because it didn’t originate from midi, a retake is in order. If not possible, just tweak those wav-parts in some dedicated wav-editor and reimport.
PiginiIt is still compiled with VS6, so Windows compatibility is unchanged.
Thanx a million, I’m more than a little relieved to read that!!
@spoonboiler
When using XP for audio/midi stuff, it’s best having a dedicated partition to start from a boot manager where network support and all but the bare essential services are disabled, no unnecessary background tasks running etc.. That’s better than untweaked, but still not as good as w98 midiwise, it’s probably because of w98 drivers accessing the hardware more directly. In general it’s best to use hardware with inbuilt syncing capabilities (vitc,ltc,mtc) plus the software to make use of it. Of course, audio needs to be clock-synced too.
Audio/midi hardware connected to pci-bus or pcmcia, expresscard-slot or firewire on laptops syncs better than usb devices.
If usb hardware is to be used, midi and audio should be integrated in the same device (no additional usb midi interface fighting for cpu cycles and bandwidth), no other devices on the usb bus at all (no mouse or keyboard either).
You mentioned the Atari. Midiwise it still rules. That goes for the timing aswell as for the difference in creative approaches the various midi soft on Atari offers. With Notator or Logic+Unitor you get multiple reliable midi ports and syncing capabilities cheap today. The solid timing is mostly due to the OS, which in comparison to todays PC’s happens completely on the Bios-Level. A good example that raw CPU-Power is not everything.
PiginiHmmm, I thought the w98-discussion would slide a bit off track…
Just a reminder:
The point I was making about prefering w98 for midi/audio is the tighter timing when working with several midi-linked computers.
It is important when playing and recording stuff in that setup.
Some things, like drivers accessing the hardware more directly, make w98 more suitable for that. It wasn’t about not wanting to switch, or having old hardware, holding on or such. I do own licenses for both win2k and winxp, just don’t use those newer OS’s for that kind of midi/audio setup, I described earlier, because w98 does a better job at this particular task.