druid@ishkabbible wrote:
@druid wrote:
your USB device could be being powered down automatically by Windows
The US-600 is externally powered so there is no way I would know if Windows was doing something stupid like that, but it does have a USB indicator LED on the front that never goes out.
I *do* believe that the TASCAM driver is a bit flaky – there are times when I fire up Podium that it takes forever to come up, then gives me an error saying “can’t initialize audio interface.” I have to pull the USB connection and plug it back in to “reset” something, then it works. ANd in that case also other programs are still able to use the device, so this is a Podium-specific issue.
Ah! Externally powered, I had missed that. In that case, I would expect Windows not to bother with it, if it isn’t drawing power through USB.
I get a problem similar to (the same as?) that with my Tascam, and not just when I use its own ASIO drivers; the Tascam (or Windows) does not like waking up from sleep or hibernate and for the Tascam to work problem free. I have to then unplug it from the computer, then replug it in. It’s not hard, but it is a nuisance.
I have to admit, since I switched to using ASIO4ALL, even with my Tascam, I haven’t had driver problems. Just hardware problems. I’ll be avoiding Tascam in the future as hard as I possibly can .. which is a shame, because I think, on paper, their USB interfaces look useful and their price reasonable, more or less. After dealing with their support, however, and even offering to help them (not realising they didn’t care because they were about to release the US-144 mkII and thus were discontinuing support for the original), their complete lack of care, their dismissal etc etc … I just gave up and vowed to never give them another cent haha.
Anyway, I hope you get your problem sorted! I haven’t had any Podium-specific issues with the Tascam that I’m aware; though I think Podium has been a little more sensitive to it at times, I’ve had issues with my Tascam with all programs at one point or another, since I switched to Win7 (64-bit) from XP.
druidAt a guess, your USB device could be being powered down automatically by Windows to conserve unnecessary power usage. I seem to recall having problems with my old-ish Tascam US-144, which I think may have been similar…
But if this were the case, I’d expect other programs to have the problem too.
And I’m sorry, but I don’t remember how I resolved the problem. It’s an older, no longer supported product though, so this may actually not be the same issue.
druidI can definitely understand your concern, and what you say. Being a tech enthusiast, it’s a little more difficult to relate personally, however. As it turns out, my Windows installation is on a separate partition (a virtual hard disk, I guess, in case you aren’t already aware of the term). Honestly, I probably set it up this way for the very reason you mention: So I can wipe Windows if I reinstall it or something goes wrong, without affecting other data!
I think some of your concerns won’t really fruit to the degree that you are concerned about, but I can definitely agree that some of these things might occur. I don’t think the Windows 8 upgrade has really caused the turmoil in as widespread manner as some people believe or state; in the end, Windows 8 is incredibly compatible with Windows 7, because is using the same kernel in essence (upgraded of course, but the same basic structure and programming), same driver structures … so on and so forth.
Windows 7 caused quite a few issues after Vista honestly, despite its meaning to be compatible with Vista drivers. I actually was one of the people that had issues with my USB sound device (Tascam US-144 – I regret that purchase now!), AND my USB network device!! I couldn’t use the internet without plugging in ethernet cables for around 2-4 weeks, before the driver issue was sorted out. This was at the release of Windows 7! And I was furious, but after it was fixed, I got over it pretty fast.
Windows 8 has drawn so much attention that it becomes easy to believe many more users are having issues than they actually are. On the flip side, Windows 8 upgrade (as in no wiping of drives) is meant to be more accessible and usable than ever, and thus, they’ve pushed users in that direction more, which … I think will cause more problems. I’d be willing to bet well over 50% of users who have done it, however, have not had any more than minor issues, if any at all, which means that the majority do not have problems.
I agree the percentage should be higher, but it’s easier said than done.
Anyway, I’m getting side-tracked. I think the point of more frequent updates is similar to the OS X way of doing things. This means the changes between versions won’t vary as much as they would, say, between Vista and 7, or 7 and 8 (or especially XP and Vista!). The chances of, as you say, waking up and finding your host is broken I think would be pretty minimal. However, Windows 8 (and any Windows so far, really) also allows users to put off doing automatic updates. If you were to do that for a bit until Windows 8 insisted, by that time any host being actively developed should’ve overcome any problems that may have have been caused, and then the updates, along with host updates, should be fine to install.
I don’t see this as particularly different (though to be sure it IS more extreme) than current ways of doing things. Currently, as you have admitted doing yourself, people tweak their workstations for DAWs. That I’m sure will continue. A common one is not to update automatically, isn’t it? Some security patches or other thiings have caused software issues in the past as well, so tweakers for particular computing purposes often try to mitigate these effects by disabling or toning down such settings. I imagine this would remain the same in Windows 8 – but, of course, Microsoft are going to be pushing updates harder. They wouldn’t need to do this, if their userbase on previous systems hadn’t been so unwilling to patch their systems in the first place, and helped spread a lot of the botnets and viruses we have floating on the internet these days.
Another point is legacy software; what if something breaks compatibility with software that is no longer being updated? I don’t see this as a real problem either (though it would frustrate me a lot if it happened to me, regardless). People who want to use older software, in all cases, eventually need to use the old OS it was programmed for, or an emulator of sorts. This will always happen, and really can’t be helped unless we freeze everything.
Ok, so, I’ve … kind of lost being direct and concise here. In short, I think circumstances will do as you are afraid of, but won’t affect the vast majority of people. You can never have 100% success rate, especially not as Microsoft allow such a wide ecosystem of hardware and software on their systems. That’s one benefit of Apple; they control compatible and supported hardware and software much more tightly, reducing such strains quite considerably. Despite this, they still have problems with legacy software too (the Mountain Lion update caused considerable upset, especially in the small business sector, as it dropped support for something I’ve forgotten the name of).
For DAW work and cautiously using a computer, I would recommend the same I would’ve for the last decade; disable auto update and allow them through when you want instead. Windows 8 will eventually insist on it, unlike previous OSes, but you can delay it for a bit, after which, updated hosts should fix issues.
Another point: If this sort of thing happened, who really should the finger be pointed at? Microsoft gets a lot of pointed fingers, often deservedly, but sometimes not. Their software is just as solid, if not more so, than a lot of software developers out there, some of whom only patch their software ever couple of years. If Microsoft finds a bug (a BUG, not a feature) and fixes it, and it causes issue with a piece of software which is reluctantly then updated months later, causing massive disruption, who is to blame for that? Microsoft often gets the blame because they “changed” something, but then why did the software rely on something that was a bug, I wonder?
Anyway this post is half thinking out loud, sorry. Your concerns need to constantly be presented by the community though, to keep software developers (Microsoft and everyone else) on their toes and make sure they do as well as they can to avoid issues.
I would be pretty surprised if you woke up one day after an update (like a security patch, not like Blue) and found your software to no longer work. I’d be surprised if updates like Blue did that as well; but those updates are more like major patches that would be paid for I believe, in the end, like Apple’s updates. Like getting a DAW host for all 1.x versions, but then needing to pay for the ugprade to all 2.x versions, current and future.
I’ll try to be way more consise in future!
druidOh! No real issue at all, I was surprised to see you say that only because I’d seen and heard lots of people considering moving to OS X desktops. Note, considering. Not all have shifted, I suppose. Many people are happier with the cheaper models … but they can still get even cheaper Windows PCs.
Actually, I’m quite happy if what you read is correct about Apple dekstops slipping back a little. 🙂
So yeah, I wasn’t taking issue with your post at all. Happy to read that one. 🙂 I was actually more interested in pointing out to sobaka why creating an OS X version of software made originally for Windows is likely a lot more effort than sobaka appears to think.
druidI can certainly relate to what you say with most of that post, and I’m not sure how I got past those feelings. My first impression was extremely negative haha.
Anyway, so-called “Windows 9” is apparently code-named Windows Blue, and it looks like tiles and the new way of doing things is staying.
http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/28/3693368/windows-blue-update-low-cost
With that said, you might not have meant Windows Blue, which looks to retain the Windows 8 moniker, but rather the real successor. But with yearly updates as they seem intent on moving to (similar to Apple), it may be a lot longer off than the few years that Vista, 7 and 8 got people a little more accustomed to. And by then, I suspect that many concepts about computing will have changed if not by a little, then by a fair amount, and even more “innovation” will be included in Windows 9.
Well, that’s my prediction, but no one will truly know until it’s much closer to the time. I’m not sure what I hope for yet, honestly.
druidTelenator: I kind of agree with you, and disagree with you. I certainly wasn’t talking about iPads either, unless they suddenly gain the ability to run OS X software (which they won’t).
I have seen Macbooks become more and more popular however, and while I’m not certain if Apple can increase their share of that market, they’ve already surpassed what I initially thought they would achieve. I’m disappointed, personally (despite the positive competition it provides Microsoft, Google and so on), but I’ve known quite a few people who have switched to the Apple ecosystem, including for desktop computing environs.
sobaka: Rewriting for OS X is not as simple as you might think. The fact that Apple desktops (at least recently and for the near future) use Intel CPUs makes it much easier, but there are still many Microsoft libraries that many people use during coding for Windows. I would assume Frits also does. If so, to code for OS X means to write new bits or find new libraries that cover the same functions required, that were already coded for Windows. Any DirectX programming, which is extremely common even for 2 dimensional GUIs in Windows now, would not translate to OS X. There may be libraries (free?) available to help mitigate this effect, but they also may have a performance overhead that isn’t initially accounted for.
Image Line has been trying to produce an OS X version of FL Studio and I believe it was aimed for release sooner (possibly for the 11 release?), but I also believe now that too many issues were run into.
It really does take a lot more effort than you might think. Having done programming a little myself, I would certainly not envy needing to maintain at the very least two code bases (meaning needing to invest in infrastructure to test both as well, which also exponentially increases time spent coding for both).
An OS X version would also be typically expected to support OS X plugin formats (RTAS? I don’t remember what they are); this is something that I expect Frits has not done. That’s even more time spent.
His focus on iPad would’ve done similar, but gladly (at least for me) with x86 Windows tablets coming into market, it would allow him to save a lot of time by using close to the same ecosystem he was already programming for.
Anyway, I’ve probably gone into it enough. Sorry for the wall of text!
druidYou know, and perhaps this goes without saying (and maybe makes it different enough not to count), but you could easily load Windows XP into a virtual machine with VMPlayer. Once I install Win8, I’m going to be creating VMs for Windows 98 SE (Buzz Tracker, and enough of an archive I want to lift things from 🙁 and Buzz is so unstable, more so on later Win versions), Windows XP and possibly Linux.
Or, if you have Win7 Ultimate, you can install a “free” copy (Ultimate comes with an XP licence) of XP Mode, in which sound works too.
I’m not entirely sure if ASIO4ALL works well, or at all, in these, but I don’t see why not, and I will surely be finding out later this year.
That would give you an XP environment that mimics real situations relatively closely (albeit not with the same hardware variety). Always good to test on a range of systems, and perhaps you already use VMs for this anyway..?
druidMay I just say that, considering all the messages so far about development of Podium turning towards different system types and it taking time away from other matters, Mac OSX support seems like a not very good idea! Unfortunately for one-man outfits, though, Apple products, including their computers, are increasing in usage, and I do wonder if things may need to be coded for both (or, heaven forbid, soemthing becomes standardised enough so that applications can run on either; but this will never happen, I’d eat a hundred hats if it did).
druidI am personally going to give up the start menu as a test for a bit and see how I like it.
I will find out afterwards, whether I can do without, or not. Honestly, I think I’m one of those users who does without it most of the time now. I pinned most used apps to the bottom, and I often just press start button and type. So I almost never navigate the menu.
And if I hadn’t stubbornly renamed all of my English links in start menu to Japanese, I would never go to start menu, I would always type. Sadly, I’m still not accustomed to typing Japanese fast enough or remembering my re-pronunciation of those link names to make it quicker to type. When I install Win8 and swap, I am likely to leave them as English; I’ve ceased the drive to learn Japanese now, and don’t need to convert everything on my system that I can to it. 😛
I think those start menu replacers could be useful to some, but I’d recommend anyone try and see if they can’t get used to the new style first. If not, well, there’s solutions available. The one I knew of was Stardock’s one; mostly because they’ve been around for ages customising many Windows series (for skinning and custom window handling modifications, and more). I think they even had applications for Windows 9x!!!
Anyway, I’ve read a range of coverage on Win8 and it’s just all sensationalist across the board. I won’t know how I truly feel by reading other people’s words (sometimes I can, but not with this controversial release). Que sera sera (without the accents), or something.
druidThere are a couple of things I take issue with in his article.
Of course, it is an “opinion” column. And, in that case, any reader should take his view as just that; opinion, and not technically studied and proofed fact. In other words, he could easily get the wrong end of the stick … and point the finger at the wrong person.
Then, more than an hour into the effort, the Pavilion’s hardware-diagnostic program prevented a required restart of Windows until I manually intervened.
This may, or may not, be the fault of Microsoft. What if the Pavilion’s software was doing something that it shouldn’t really be doing, or was buggy? Unlike the Apple ecosystem, Microsoft’s OS is a lot more open to things happening on it; the Pavilion software may have been operating sub-optimally, and caused a problem.
… which others without said software may not have had. Is this Microsoft’s problem? Of course, we don’t know, but come on Rich, let’s not point the blame at Microsoft just for the hell of it.
Finally, upgrade complete, I rebooted into the new Windows 8 Start screen. I was greeted with its colorful tiles — and an error message that read “.Net 3.5 Client Profile Runtime has stopped working.” When I tried to summon Microsoft’s online help service for a solution, I discovered my PC no longer had Internet access, thanks to an incompatibility with the version of Symantec (SYMC)’s Norton Firewall software I was using. (Most of my other existing programs, though, seemed to run fine with the new operating system.)
Interesting. Rich was upgrading, which means Windows 8 checks for compatibility. I would be very surprised if Windows 8 had not warned him to uninstall Symantec if it was incompatible. It warned my wife for things like simple USB 3 drivers, and iTunes (which is actually compatible, I guess it must have a hook or process that the Windows 8 installer is unsure about?). Of course, I can’t know for certain, but did Rich actually uninstall any software that the installer wasn’t sure about? He didn’t mention so anywhere; this seems like quite an exclusion, considering how common it is for Windows 8 to recommend removing certain pieces of software, including common applications! And if he didn’t, he wasn’t playing the game straight.
may find themselves needing to memorize keyboard shortcuts for many common tasks, a throwback to earlier days of computing.
Rich’s “throwback” terminology clearly implies that he believes keyboard shortcuts were something that was useful many years ago. Actually, each version of Windows has increasingly added shortcuts, and Windows 8 is no exception. “Power” users (the people that actually are most adept at computers) typically use many keyboard shortcuts. Of course, it shouldn’t be required, my issue here is merely Rich’s implication of an older system, when in actual fact it’s alive and well in many circles, and not a “throwback” in any sense of the word.
And missing from the desktop is the familiar button that would allow you to shut down or restart the PC.
This shows ignorance for how modern computers are intended to function. They are made to sleep, standby, and so on. They are not meant to be restarted or shut down except when necessary, which is not often. This includes (a well-updated) Vista, 7 and even more so, 8. Even XP was often stable for long periods of time. I have only recently got myself out of the habit of shutting down; in the end, it wasn’t because “it’s better for the computer”, I realised. It was because it’s what I’ve been doing my whole life, and I’m merely comfortable with it.
Rich clearly hasn’t realised that he isn’t meant to shut it off, or restart it, unless the machine requires it for an update. Even hibernation, which does not draw power, is more intended to be used than shut down. So they aren’t “missing”. They have been moved away from common use, because you aren’t meant to commonly use them. .. and the physical power button on computers still works fine. I have to admit, I stopped clicking shut down when I could just press my physical power button, honestly!
Further, there’s no option to boot directly into the desktop environment, or restore the Start menu.
This is only a small one, and he’s right for the most part; included in Windows, there isn’t. There’s a reason; it’s because the desktop actually IS meant to be a second part, and not the “main screen”. It’s down to taste whether this is fine or not. I haven’t made up my mind yet, and for all the positivty I feel for Windows 8, I could easily decide I’d rather have the desktop load first.
What he hasn’t bothered trying to find out (or at the very least mentioning), especially for reader’s sakes (in case they feel the same as him) is that there is software available to perform this for him, if he really can’t move forward and needs to stick with his older, familiar way of using computers.
The rest of what he says does echo many people’s feelings, from what I can tell. The disparity between “two worlds” as I’ve seen it referred to elsewhere, the two IE versions both being there, that the interface is designed more for tablets (regardless of what Microsoft says). He makes good points, but some of his bias is blatant, and he clearly has no time to accustom to a new environment.
… so if he isn’t willing to give it time, why did he upgrade? I wouldn’t move from an older version of DAW software to a newer one, if I wasn’t ready to accept that there are going to be changes, sometimes major…
Anyway, there’s my take on the parts that I disagree with. I found his “test” to be pretty inconclusive, not thorough, and uninformed. Of course, his experience and thoughts may reflect many basic users’ as well. It’s not so much that he’s wrong; it’s that he’s got that typical lack of patience that is so common in the I.T. world (from users who the I.T. staff support, or at least try to).
Windows 8 is still, sadly, a mixed bag.
I typically find reviews, by people who are more adept with whatever they’re reviewing, to be more useful when making decisions on any purchases or the like. People’s rushed opinions like this can make you avoid things that may work great for you, or make you jump eagerly into things that might shatter you. I’d take the view from someone who did a couple of weeks of solid usage over someone who did a couple of hours of installing and experimenting any day.
druidYou’ve actually nailed one of my concerns about the tablet format; the size of the screen. But make it too large, and the tablet is unwieldy for all but the hardcore power tablet users.
My eyesight is, I consider at least, relatively poor. And more elderly people will also have issues with eyesight which, at least for now, is unavoidable. UIs need to be redesigned for the form factor, which is unfortunate but unavoidable. If only there was a trade off worth having, where the same could be used both on a desktop and tablet..! We’re not there yet though.
And I don’t see desktops dying any time soon, honestly (whether they’re the old boxes that I love and will probably keep building until I can no longer do so, or in the more modern AIO form factor). I do see two form factors working as companions in the near future though, desktop and tablet. I’m actually hoping mobiles die out, and that wireless communication with voice control allows using the tablet packed in one’s bag as one’s phone, with a wireless headset. Bluetooth 2.0 certainly doesn’t fulfill that as it drains too much power and is too unreliable (doesn’t seem to be quite standardised enough, either, judging from people online’s preferences for particular Bluetooth stacks and so forth!). I don’t know enough, nor have tested, Bluetooth 4.0 or particularly the low power variant, to make judgement on the new version.
.. wow I’m getting sidetracked. Anyway, like I said, you mentioned a large issue with the tablet format, in my opinion. Which also brings up an issue that will become increasingly problematic with the old Windows interface: Resolution. As screen resolutions inevitably increase, operating systems AND the software running on them need to scale sensibly, and not work on the old method of pixel to pixel mapping. I think Apple is on to something with their scaling thing, though I don’t like everything about how they’ve set it up. Anyway, that means desktop applications like Podium on tablets running on x86 setups (or in other words, NOT Windows 8 RT) will end up being even smaller than they already are.
I guess you’d already have realised this Frits, but if you follow the tablet path, you’ll end up needing to make Podium adjust it’s size scaling depending on the pixel density. From what I’ve read, I think you’ve coded your interface in a rendering style that you could easily scale, and if so, that would take a bit of work out for you, I suspect. 🙂 If I recall, Microsoft “support” three setups: 100%, 180% and another I can’t remember, maybe 150%?
My post is way too long now, I’ll leave it there.
druidI’d like to see Microsoft do well, but it’s difficult to enter the market for them, based on multiple factors. I hear supplies are quite low for the tablet, but also, originally you had to buy them through Microsoft’s own website. Huh?!? If they aren’t lined up in stores, how will many “average Joes” find out about them, or test them, and so on, in stores, and then buy them?
Microsoft have already stated that they didn’t intend this to be THE Windows 8 tablet, more like a benchmark for it, however. There are also many people holding off until the Pro release, because they want to use full Windows 8 on x86, and not be limited to the RT. I have to admit I’m a little baffled as to why Microsoft chose to create an RT version, at least at this stage. If they were already a competitor in the tablet space, maybe … but because they aren’t, I have always assumed Windows RT would not really gain a lot of traction.
The tablet I want to get will not be Microsoft’s, though I think the Surface Pro has a lot going for it. It will likely be Asus or Samsung, or waiting for a better variant (assuming one comes along). I’ve seen a lot of people online taking Microsoft’s Surface success or not as telling for the whole Windows 8 tablet market, which I think is pretty poor form. However, poor form is also that many Windows 8 tablets have not yet come to market, either. Indeed, if Surface is not meant to be the only Windows 8 tablet, then where are all its competitors?
I have no answer, and it is pretty disappointing, at least for me. I think some of the release execution for this could have been handled better.
druid@The Telenator wrote:
Please correct me if I am wrong, and I may very well be, but it looks to me your zeal to have a tablet is causing you to think impractically about any of this — and other concerns I haven’t even mentioned yet that others have brought up on those PC forums. I have a little digital recorder, all of $40, to capture any musical bits when I’m traveling. It works simply and just fine. So I ask, where is the advantage in having a tablet?
The advantage is being able to take more of your home with you outside of your home.
I do really want one, I won’t deny it. Some models will be impractical for outside audio work, that’s true. I never said every tablet would work. I haven’t dared buy a tablet yet, because they’ve been either OSes that I can’t use programs I’m used to on, or older Windows where hardware really did make it far too impractical. New models right now still haven’t, in my opinion, reached that nice balance or niche (storage space, power on time, and that’s just the start). Will I buy one? In this generation or next, yes, very likely. I won’t believe that will be ideal though, but I can see promise in it.
Again, I was only trying to reduce your strong sense of “tablets are a waste of time” (in a manner that appeared to suggest everyone does, or should, agree with you). You have actually come off that, and I have no problem with your more recent posts about that, in response to mine, other than you twisting my words.
Depending entirely on developer interest in and the responsive of (or how much control it has, perhaps?) Windows 8 RT (and of course the hardware, which will of course not likely be in cheaper versions), then it could be useful for pro audio. So could iOS, and Android.
If all you need is what you have, then you’re sorted! That’s great, and I’d never dream of taking that away from you. But I don’t see the relevance to whether or not a tablet can be used in a pro-audio sense or not.
… now, should I start discussing touch interface, and desktop systems? 😆 (it’s ok, I won’t)
druidOk, I understand your points.
I’m telling you that tablets are ok to use for productive music creation. This is something you have contended several times, and of course you are welcome to your opinion. I only wanted to put to you that there are plenty of people out there (who may still of course be in a minority) that WOULD get use from it, and it isn’t the useless form factor you put it up as.
That’s all.
You’re telling me that other things need fixing first in Podium. I think I could certainly agree with some of the things you think are missing, and should be worked on first.
Those are two separate points and don’t necessarily go hand in hand. I’m not disagreeing with your points. Sure, I don’t believe time should be exclusively to add such things in and I think some creative use of time is a positive thing, so perhaps I’m a little less strict feeling in that sense…? Maybe? But, that wasn’t my point. I’m talking about the tablet form factor, not Podium itself (though I think it could be good on that). You have, several times, referred specifically to the form factor in general, in addition to the intended direction Podium will take to it.
Am I making sense, or am I still confuddling this?
druidI see comments relating to comments I never made, Telenator. 🙂 (otherwise known as twisting words, or taking out of context)
All I’m saying is, while you can predict how much non-use tablets will be for seriously creating music, you can’t guarantee it, but you talk as though you can. I would agree that, currently, people who want to do this are in the minority, and I certainly wouldn’t make that business decision based on me, who can’t find much time to do anything these days, forget about music.
I think you’re drawing some of what I said out of context. I am specifically referring to your inability to accept touch interface and tablets as a serious working alternative to some of the technologies you yourself use (and by the sounds of it, got used to only recently, I think I recall you posted about that?). Those technologies, a lot of them, were scoffed at by many people when they were new. That doesn’t justify a new technology, and only time can tell that. You don’t have to like them. Everyone has different opinions. I don’t think you should dismiss them so easily, and also talk as though they are a waste of time, as if it is multiple professional music maker’s opinions (I mean as if it’s a majority, and I know you don’t know the majority of music makers in the world), and not only your own.
I think you would need people to specifically post to prove that. I am inclined to agree with you, but your statements talk more of objectiveness, when in fact it’s subjective.
That’s all I’m saying. I’d like to just see a little more humility in what you say about it, is all!
I certainly understand the frustrations you have, I really can, but the way they are expressed .. I can understand that, too, but I can’t agree that it’s the right way to go about it.
Part of this is in effect responding to alex too.
Anyway, the way I interpret your text is maybe stronger than you intended? I don’t know. I can only interpret it the way I can, as you can only interpret mine the way you do. I just hope I can successfully get my point across, instead of failing to do so and causing only irrelevant pointing at particular quotes that may or may not be the central point being made. I often can’t, and if I have failed once again, then I apologise for wasting your time.
Toodles!