The TelenatorYeah, I think there’s a lot to that. Those ToneBoosters — they sure look nice! But then there’s Ohmforce’s Frohmage that I picked up a couple of weeks ago — it’s one of those VSTs that looks like it was designed by a drunk, yet it is possibly the most musically creative and interesting of any I’ve got.
I think what blows me away the most, though, is how visually and soundwise you can now have a very close emulation of some totally pro $100k rack units nowadays, the kind of hardware they didn’t want you anywhere near in the control room.
I’ve already snapped up a careful selection of the Sir Elliot plugs. A couple of those were exactly what I was missing. Anyone else want to post their favorite mixing/mastering plugins?
The TelenatorWow, rinxai! Thanks so much for that Sir Elliot link. I’ve never seen those mentioned anywhere, and believe me I’ve looked and thoroughly scanned dozens of sites.
The TelenatorTrancit, I’ll answer what I can for now — a bit squeezed for time this week.
There is definitely a problem with some spiking of the Podium engine, especially if you drive the CPU usage quite high, there are spikes about 20% or more
All Daws have a degree of spiking. I covered that above when I tested it myself the other day.
Second: the specs of a computer are secondary …
It usually is secondary, but not always. It’s a great help in ruling out other possibilities.
I compared Podium and REAPER above also, two DAWs I know best these days. Sorry, I realize my posts tend to run long and info may get buried, but some of these answers are already stated above.
that means to me 960 synth voices less!!!!!!!!!!
Believe it or not, you see this kind of abstract testing a lot on forums but it serves no real purpose. It’s pointless to run any test that is not a real-world-usage situation. It’s like stating, Hey, my DAW doesn’t run on the planet Jupiter! The answer always has to be, So What?
I ran 35 instances with a CPU use (Podium´s own meter) . . .
If you are referring to the Mix meter in the bottom right corner, that is NOT your system’s CPU usage; that is Podium’s own internal processing and can be misleading if you are unfamiliar about how that works. That’s an easy mistake to make, though. That’s why I’ve suggested at least twice on these forums that users get something accurate and fast-reading such as Process Explorer. Otherwise, it’s guesswork.
The system is completely optimized and runs fine on everything except Podium…
I think what you really mean here is that you’ve discovered a couple of DAWs that work well with your gear, unless you have tested the some 30 or 40 now extant. And you should be happy you have found some you like, because there are numerous variables in PCs and setups. I’ve had issues with other DAW and plugin software before, too. In fact, this is why Zynewave states that everyone should test the free version on their systems first. What works on your machine may perform poorly on mine. Often a reason can be found, but sometimes it can be quite difficult to determine the core problem, as system configurations are almost limitless these days. One of my hobbies is testing software for bugs. I was saying before how much I also like REAPER, and it’s very efficient with employing plugins. At the same time the current release is a jittery mess of bugs. Those guys over there are wild and fast with the updates and stuff slips by them constantly. At least Frits here at Zynewave is careful, and if a new Podium release ends up with a bug you know it is something bizarre that the average mortal would have to miss!
The TelenatorMELDA: Yeah, thanks to your mention in that other thread, I installed their whole free bundle but haven’t used any yet. I’ll try their comp. soon. I’ll bet their for-$ plugins are really something. I read their tutorial pages about a few of them. Some are rather pricey, too. It sounds like their commercial-edition comp./limiter is one of the best out there from the site info.
REAPER: Niggles, you say? REAPER will always be my 2nd or backup, as there is just too many good features, options, and lots to like about it; however, they are so adventurous with their updates that bugs and issues inevitably creep into almost every new release. Some or all of the original designers were guitarists. REAPER is somewhat targeted toward guitarists — I swear I can just feel it when I use it. Seems set up for the un-technically oriented player who just wants to record his instrument or his band. There are some awesome user-created skins for it, too. One mimics Pro Tools, another various Vox equipment. But I think what you call niggles is exactly what I was talking about. It can be kind of “jumpy” — very unlike Podium.
The TelenatorPatronizing . . . really? I’ve done all your work for you during my breaks.
You need to learn the basic protocols for posting problems or receiving help on audio forums. You need to provide all your specs. At least two others have pointed this out to you.
You also need to learn how to do your own research and solve some of your own issues. Here:
http://www.avantfind.com/search.asp?keywords=M%2DAudio+2496+ASIO+problem
Here, just one example of a dozen:
The ASIO that you DIDN’T LIST for us is apparently one of those DELTA types, and it is known to cause issues in several DAWs. Zynewave Podium was not mentioned in any of the links, but FL Studio, Sonar, and a few more common ones were. You could have other issues with your hardware, but how can any of us know? I’ve thoroughly covered two of them for you. It is extremely clear at this point that your issue has absolutely nothing to do with Podium itself. I have pursued this partly because if Podium was indeed to blame I wanted to know for my personal knowledge but, more than that, I don’t want to see newbies and potential users misled by anyone posting incorrect accusations. If someone’s software is crap and I can prove it, hey, I’ll be the first to critique, otherwise not. Plenty of false information on the Net already without making it worse. Set up properly, Podium is a killer DAW. I’ll be proving that with some music posts shortly.
The Telenatormichi, I went back and checked — the only info you offered was use of an M-Audio 2496. Period. This is feed thru your card, No? And . . .
I’ve explained all the rest above.
The Telenator is not “telling his/her specs?!?” because The Telenator is not the one complaining and asking for help. The Telenator does his own research (and yours, in this case), almost always resolves his own issues, and knows how to keep his business clean.
The Telenator’s specs and info are N/A.
The Telenatorkim, loving all issues re music and computers, this is a welcome and needed distraction during breaks. Now that I have a good handle on Podium I need to clear out a backlog of about 2 dozens tunes in various stages when I left Cubase. Whoa! This Podium truly kicks ass, and I’m using REAPER via ReaRoute or more commonly as a ReWire slave — one powerful and super hot setup. Took another little break earlier and went all through and did full customization of all Podium’s editors and misc. Some didn’t need much ’cause I really fell for Podium as is. Using mainly Digitech guitar gear into DAW via USB. The digitech has always sounded great, but the sound I’m getting blows this old geezer totally away. Hardly needs any further processing. All the groovy sounds being pre-processed outboard saving me at least 25% CPU to boot. Otherwise, I’m back to workaholic with no gigs till Valentines. Got to get caught up!
I know I like to run long when I post — kind of like talking to myself as therapy I guess, considering how quiet things are around here most of the time! I hope to put my verbal excess to good use late this summer and give Frits a break by going through a fine-comb edit of the Wiki/Guide. Any others editorially inclined out there? It’s getting way outdated and lots of little spelling, grammar, clarity glitches.
I think it’s actually a LAW: Designers should not have to write the manual. That’s usually reserved for hacks such as myself. Former career-track music magazine editor until I retired to return to the life of a starving artist.
Anyhow, for michi and others interested the actual meat of this particular post is quite brief:
SOUNDCARD INTERFACE ASIO
Yup, and to answer michi’s latest and re-occuring question, the answer is Yes and No.
Just like ASIO4ALL works just great for over half of all who need it, for a lot of others it will not work at all. Not completely related here but it just doesn’t like certain soundcards and software. In some respects we need to realize that audio on PCs is just now coming out of the Stone Age. The only reason there is any audio at all on computers is because kids demand to play video games and listen to Justin Bieber. No joke. Microsoft couldn’t care less about us musicians and our audio needs, so people need to get used t it.
I knew about this before, but I researched it again. His PC is probably good enough otherwise, although we have to guess. On most forums they won’t even acknowledge your presence if needing help unless you post EVERY spec, stat, detail, fork over your ini files, whatever.
Yes, it’s a flukey digital world we live in. Some PCs act like they have a true personality, some act like snots, just like some people have charisma and others can’t buy a job for any price. Something in relation to his use of Podium (apparently, and this is my theory) is locking down his whole works through the weak link of the soundcard. Don’t care what else it may look or sound like, or how many times and ways it may have worked on various other setups. You see this everywhere and on every forum all the time — it’s the soundcards and related that are halting, locking down, freezing, crashing, refusing to boot these computers. Plugin crashes are becoming less common. It’s the SOUNDCARD and the driver(s) involved.
I’m willing to bet the PC has a truly terrible card, one on everybody’s list; next, I’ll guess that his motherboard is close behind. The chip is probably just fine. They almost never die. One thing we can say for sure, though, it really has nothing to do with Podium. From my experimenting I’ve found the design is almost crash proof — unless you lock it up with a 3rd-party driver.
Cheers!
The TelenatorAll rightie then! Let me post this while I take a much needed mixing break. Finally have come up to speed completely in knowing how to get around confidently in Podium, so of course I went through the night recording again. Dead beat and need a nap before trying to mix objectively anymore. My ears aren’t toast but my brain seems to be. I found a good 12-step group to help deal with my VST/VSTi addiction, only to transfer it to my favorite DAW, and now I have become a Podium junkie. Oh, well. There are worse things in this world.
I have recreated the SPIKING many times that was reported earlier. The rest may be still a mystery (I’m 95% going with weak or incompatible soundcards for your other problems, though), but I have seen the spike repeatedly that was described. Many variables any time you take a given DAW X and put it with PC Y. Some things play well together, some things don’t, but I still think that’s the issue underneath it all.
I figured the perfect villain to use for the test would be DENSITY MKII. It’s not the worst of CPU hogs but it seems to cause grief on most DAWs in one way or the other. On REAPER it likes to refuse to re-open its UI but usually just loads a little slow the first time. On restart it usually freezes everything for a half minute perhaps, then works. There is a thread or comments on their forum about it, and I have similar results. It acted up on Cubase, too, but can’t remember details. Density also happens to be one of my very favorite mixdown comp./limiters, so there’s no way I’m not going to do all to make it work.
When loaded into the Master or any track it causes a spike — very quick to sometimes 80-90% into the red on the Mix meter on Podium, then slides back in waves to a normal 1 to 7% depending on what else is used. Now THIS is only on idle — plug functioning but no sound thru-put. Happens every time and I’m sure I could find some other plug that would act up. I wonder . . . Ambience? That one is known to be fidgety sometimes.
The good news is, it goes back to normal behavior when processing sound — no issues then, so that’s a relief. I’ve been using it to polish some lead guitar tracks all night. When I get annoyed watching the meter I just X out, disable the plug while doing other things. Is this a Podium Bug? Yes, I believe it technically is, or an idiosyncrasy at the very least but does not slow down or harm any of my tracks in any way. It’s more like an annoying uncle who overstays his visit. So this is only the “Mix” in lower right corner of Podium, not 90% of Windows 7 CPUs by any means. My Sidebar meter only flickers a very few percentage points.
Does this sound exactly like what was reported earlier? It sure looks like it to me. I also tested to be very sure — it’s nothing at all to do with denormals. I employed the capable voltage-variable digitalfishphones gizmo to check that possibility. So you were correct earlier on that point.
Maybe more on the other matter another time, but I’m really thinking soundcard. A basic, reliable interface with a pro ASIO can take so much weight off of any second-rate card. I’ve now gone 100% with ASIO4ALL to run my Digitech stuff and it works great in 24 bit. (I’m guessing that) Digitech’s own ASIO simply will not release the soundcard on exit and tho specifically designed for this hardware it is also audibly worse in latency.
The TelenatorThe soundcard is a potentially huge issue and one we haven’t discussed till now. On practically all laptops and most desktops — even very good ones — it is normally the last consideration of PC manufacturers. The drag with laptops is that they are almost alway integrated deeply right into all the rest of the circuits; you can’t pull ’em out like on a desktop build.
Using some Digitech gear with one of their ASIOs, it would lock up my soundcard, freeze my screen, and any DAW I was using would refuse to exit, unless I manually changed to ASIO4ALL or DirectSound or anything else besides WASAPI before closing. It was a horrorshow. My card is barely good enough to get the job done, and it’s usually my main consideration any time I operate. I have to baby it.
ANY interface that’s new that you end up using will be an improvement and probably less strain on your system. I ought to get something; some are very affordable — for around $100 bucks you can find several now that are very good. The cheaper Behringers are probably the lowest you should go (some don’t like them yet they do perform okay). The M-Audio offerings are all pretty fine. I’d avoid any used units a year or more old, because interfaces were in a big state of flux until recently.
Now that you mention it, and looking back on all the troubles I’ve had, too, I’m starting to wonder if it is not soundcard/interface/ASIO issues that is the most likely culpret. All these non-start and shutdown problems sound an awful lot like what frozen soundcards will do. It’s often the weak link. You can have an okay PC, great DAW and plugs, good settings and know what you’re doing — just as you guys report — but soundcard/interface troubles can kill the whole deal dead.
REAPER is king, even compared to the top guns of the DAW world (although the rich kids look down their noses at it), when it comes to handling plugs efficiently, but by no means is Podium horrible. I rate Podium a little heavier than the average in consumption; safe enough that I and most average users can get by okay with it.
Finally, some DAWs DO react worse than others to soundcard/interface issues. The Cubase seemed to have the biggest problem for me, but the others weren’t far behind!
The TelenatorYes, that occurred to me again later. And it makes me recall the several serious issues I had with Cubase before I quit them and went to Podium and REAPER. Cubase is listed as only a bit above medium in cunsumption, too. Cubase was I think trying to kill me. Then I went to these two and it’s been smooth sailing. Go figure. . . .
Let me restate what both kim and I said before — Podium is really just an average consumer of CPU. Some of Ableton and ProTool’s stuff is rated heavier. There have been a couple of good tests done.
I will say one thing, though, in REAPER’s defense. They really are great at keeping the CPUs low with loaded VST and VSTi’s. No joke. REAPER is very efficient. I love REAPER, too, but I’m mindful that they have a few issues currently going on of their own right now, but not as important I think as what you are experiencing.
Now, if I could just pull out a few of their better features and combine them with Podium. The two work great together via ReWire or REAPER as slave. That’s the current setup.
Curious . . . do you have your sample rate and bit rates and everything all on the highest settings?
I hate to close with this, but that 1.6 is still below the safe mark. Is your chip soldered in or could you upgrade to something a little better that would fit your sockets? There are some really good deals on chips lately. I’ve been thinking of doing this — can’t afford a more powerful laptop anytime soon.
The TelenatorI haven’t had a lot of time for this issue, but I did look up one item:
DO NOT expect any kind of usable results on any modern full-program DAW host with any PC having CPU chip that is under 2 GHz. And if considering running the big guns such as Alchemy or Absynth VSTi, you are really asking for a total freeze or crash.
In other words, a processor rated at 1.6 GHz is actually asking for trouble. That’s what all the search links are saying, almost word for word. Also, as kim pointed out, Podium is rated pretty average in consumption, right about middle of the list.
Now, I think this begins to answer the question. A processor of 2GHz is the very minimum safe setup. RAM, to me, is the next issue. Some PCs may state 2 gigs of RAM but don’t employ it efficiently, something I didn’t realize until recently. All 2-gig RAM machines are not created equal. Have any of you checked your BIOS to see what’s set? Some come from the factory with settings limited. Another factor that keeps turning up as I research is the quality of the Motherboard. ASUS is the maker of the one in my otherwise rather average ASUS laptop. They make them for some 75% of other PC manufacturers nowadays, and I discovered that they are using rather good versions on their own laptops, I guess in order to establish some cred for their own PCs.
Anyhow, all this goes a long way to explaining why two seemingly similar PCs get drastically different results.
The TelenatorTo Trancit, who posted just as I wrote last, I shut down various programs and save a fair amount. I use IObit’s Turbo Boost, which I configured to quickly shut down my SRS Sound, Realtek HD Audio, Avira Desktop, my ATK Hotkeys, my Bluetooth, LAN, Windows Auto-Update, and a few other things I’m forgetting. The SRS itself uses up to 4% when it is online, so these things really do add up. On Windows 7, as I said, I use Personalize to go to the Safe Mode look when running 20+ tracks, etc. You can save almost 10% by turning off the pretty stuff such as that Aero Glass.
The other reason I use optimization is to shut down services that may result in clicks, pops and dropouts while recording. Nothing more frustrating than to capture that perfect guitar solo, only to discover a nasty glitch on playback.
Your other point: Those 2 and 4% CPU-each VSTs sure do add up — 20 times 2% EQ VST instances will equal 40% of CPU!
The TelenatorAgain, not a complete answer yet by any measure, but I went back and checked CPU usage again on Podium and compared with some notes I made last year before I quit Cubase, using the same plugs. I’m getting about a 3 to 3.5% momentary jump in CPU from the Podium UI (refreshing, I believe), and this occurs primarily upon changing Podium’s various window setups or opening the different editors.
The only time I’m seeing CPU use go to 50% or more is when I’m using few tracks with certain hog VSTs such as shortcircuit, Ambience and some Bootsy stuff, or running lots of tracks with somewhat fewer gadgets.
On my PC in general, it uses a good 7-10% CPU on idle if I leave Aero Glass and the other fancy pop-up menu effects running and not revert to the primitive “safe-mode” look I use for heavier recording projects. Someone was saying in the Linux thread how Windows 7 OS itself is a CPU hog, and it sure is the case.
Otherwise, I had a lot of issues running Cubase on the same laptop previously — some like you’ve described above. Yet I now have no issues running Podium. To some degree, it is often a fickle fit between one’s PC and the DAW in question; however, I still say that can’t fully explain the issues you’re having.
The audio engine of Podium was brought up, too. I don’t know for certain, but I recently read an article with a study that revealed surprisingly (to me) that the audio engines of today’s DAWs are almost virtually identical, and it went on to explain that any perceived inherent “sound” of a DAW comes from other features, such as parameter controls and the like.
The TelenatorWow, there’s certainly a lot to respond to here, now that we’re getting some details, and in some ways I’d have to say the plot thickens a little.
First off, even running one track without overloading a whole bunch of plugins on a machine that is 1.6 gig CPU and 2 gig RAM is going to be up toward the edge of maxing out. If not mistaken, I think all modern DAWs state a minimum of 2 gig CPUs. I want to point out also, since a few folks don’t realize it, that 2 cores does not double the power and four cores do not quadruple. This is a common misconception. Extra cores mainly improve the processing speed, and I just wanted to mention that.
Another item I want to repeat is about that SysInternal Process Explorer. It was designed by a guy independently but is offered with Microsoft’s blessings. I really think anyone as geeky about specs and PC workings as I am and some of you are will really like this. It’s 10 times the Task Manager in helpfulness and free to boot. I highly recommend it. I’ve used it a lot, it has many extra useful functions and I find it totally safe.
I’m unfortunately not familiar with some of the plugins listed above, so I can’t say much about them at the moment. I’m also a VST addict, so I want to check out a couple of them. Meanwhile, it’s clear that you guys are well-informed about matters such as optimization. You see, this was another issue that was not clear before. I’m constantly running into users of various DAWs who really have no clue. It is more common than you might imagine. It also looks like everyone is also hip to the potential normalization issue as well, and we can rule that out.
This then rules out a number of possibilities; however, it does not explain your problems with CPU consumption. REAPER is my second favorite DAW. I’ll be the first to admit that they have come a long way in their own development of optimizing — lots of options currently in the Preferences and, overall, I just think REAPER is a very smart setup. Each Daw has its series of strengths and weakenesses, and as much as I like REAPER, it currently has a stack of ongoing issues needing resolution. I’m holding off on upgrading to 4.15 right now because this latest edition has been discovered to contain a new small batch of bugs I just don’t want to face right now. I give them a lot of credit, though, for being innovative and usually daring!
My current laptop isn’t a heck of a lot more powerful than the one I brought up at the top of this post, so the question remains, Why am I having no issues yet others not far different are? I really do believe that some of this comes down to the particular PC, the machine being used. I have an ASUS that works better than it should IMHO. Still, to me this difference in machines can’t be the full answer.
Maybe since a couple of you have offered several significant details just now, Frits and others can chime in with some suggestions. This is an area of great interest to me. I’d like to know the answer. Granted, Podium is not the lightest in consumption of the lot, but at the same time it’s certainly not the worse. In other words, I don’t believe Podium should be maxing out your PCs based on what items I see mentioned so far.
The TelenatorSure would like to know the real facts/hard specs on what you guys are running, because as one said above, a few extra percentage points of CPU is more than welcomed to have such a well-conceived and inviting interface. After a few hours of staring at my former Cubase layout and its weird pastels, unnatural colorations, and uncustomizable screen, 8+ hours of looking at Podium is now a real blessing.
I’m routinely seeing only about 3-4% extra CPU for the UI on Podium, and I’m using a very average Core2Duo. If you are assessing usuage via the standard Task Manager, that will be vague and largely a waste of time. Get the Microsoft-endorsed FREE Process Explorer from SysInternals at technet.microsoft and it even offers the spiffy option of replacing your Task Manager if you wish. It can easily be configured to show all trees and handles in any live process. THEN you will know what’s really going on and what the real culpret is. I find that Podium uses slightly less resources than my last edition of Cubase, also, and just a tad more than REAPER, although it must be said that REAPER uses CPU resources quite differently (more upfront, less down the line usually).
Spikes can be caused by denormal issues with a few pesky VSTs. Do you have digitalfishphones’ normalizer.dll? That’s free, too, and will take care of that separate issue.
Podium runs like a charm in my case, but I point out that I set my Preferences and optimize my laptop very, very carefully to achieve great performance. Daws are not plug’n’play. It’s all in the sample rates, buffer settings and those little check boxes that often get ignored. I spent an entire two days right after the install getting things perfect. It was worth every second.
Finally, it’s easy to search this one out on the Net: Almost all of the DAWs out there these days have been tested and compared and rated for resource usuage — charts, graphs, comments, etc. There are a good dozen blogs/forums that discuss this stuff ad nauseum. There are several worse offenders than Podium, a few are far worse. This is all public info — no deep secret at all.
To make a blanket statement declaring Podium a “resource hog” without posting stats, specs, and maybe a screen shot or two is a real “stretch” to say the very least. My mileage, as I noted, is far different. I realize particular PCs have their own quirks and issues, but an internet search of this doesn’t support the claim either. Instead, several other big-name programs come up regularly. Good luck.