Conquistador's Forum Page

@Zynewave wrote:

Fair enough. Although I would still claim that if you have an effect plugin that boosts or dampens the signal to such a degree that you need to add a fader in Podium to fix the level, it would be better to fix the preset in the offending plugin instead.

Yes that is actually another good way of looking at it, but having 3 or four meters representing each fx tracks outputs is a great and flexible way to visualize a chain in a busy mix. It is one of Podium’s unique strengths …offering such a feature. Live has something similar but the meters (between FX) are barely visible.

This would only show the fader/meter selections for the focus track. I’m going to experiment with popups inside the mixer instead.

Thanks for trying the popups!

Popups:
I would add that Popups *and* the info in the mxer header serve different purposes…and as result still can both be useful as the Pop ups should aid the use of the Grid while the mixer is visible.

Mixer Header info:
The info in the mxer header however provides crucial info even with and crucially *without* the Mixer or GP in view so real estate is 100% maximised. In any case lets see what you are cooking up. 8)

I’m afraid it doesn’t make sense to me. You are describing a lot of workarounds for understanding the Chain Miniature, which shouldn’t be necessary.

Agreed I guess that should not be necessary.

Today I’m going to revise the Miniature (which btw. I’m now calling “Fader & Meter Grid” 😛 )

He he…good choice, I think having “Grid” somewhere in the description does make sense. 🙂

Thanks for the feedback. Although, I wish you would chop up these monster posts into several smaller posts. It’s hard work getting the quotes right in the reply. 😉

Yes. Sorry. I need to stop trying to enter the Guiness book of records for lengthy posts. I sometimes have a lot to say and want to keep it in one post. But more smaller posts are a better idea. Heh. 😛

@Zynewave wrote:

As UncleAge mentioned, it’s not easy to walk the fine line between “more features/less UI”.

True and I think you have done a great job walking that line but as the menu options increase e.t.c seriously considering a ribbon idea or something very similar will become more of a necessity. I have experienced some diffuclty accessing certain commands or options like Technophobia but like him I too can appreciate it’s not easy to please everyone however…

Microsofts products were a classic example of menu laden products. Deep layers of commands and such but…their ribbon or tabbed approach for Word 2007 e.t.c worked wonders for me and proved to be a popular solution with many. It’s simple and based on features most users make use of daily, so it provides a set of commands in a far more accessible way than a drop down menu can.

As a result I see no reason why as time goes on with more commands added that Podium would not benefit from a UI revision (access could be optional) that is tabbed or ribbon like in appearance.

This was discussed in far more detail here. with superb UI article here

Just a thought.

May I ask why you would want two independent faders in your Trilogy chain example? Surely it makes mixing more difficult when you have to manage two faders instead of one?

This has been mentioned before on this very thread…not every plugin has an output control or one with a meter so having two independent faders in the Trilogy chain example for me makes it easier to manage the levels of the FX tracks in the chain. Much easier. I would use three or four even in a chain.

Swindus mentioned this as well…(Page 3)

@Swindus wrote:

Sometimes it’s important to change the gain of a plugin output and not every plugin has a volume/output gain setting.

@Zynewave wrote:

@Conquistador wrote:

d. Now we are back to all tracks hidden except Trilogy. If I now click on the row of blocks for the top most EQ2 track in the chain the Output gain is automatically de-selected in the Track Properties for that EQ2 track. Correct?

No, that’s not how it behaves currently. I’ll have to do some testing to figure out what the best behaviour is. Currently it will move the bottom fader to the track you click, so in your example the bottom fader will overwrite the top fader. You can then click again on the bottom track, and the fader will move along leaving only that one fader active in the chain.

Frits you may be able to save some dev time here. Also I think I maybe I have scored 5 out of 5 in this test LOL! What I meant to say was if I click on the bottom two blocks for the EQ1 track that the EQ2 tracks Output gain control is then disabled or effectively moved to the EQ1 track. I got confused sorry, but that is basically what I meant or was trying to find out.

I see no reason to change the current behaviour in this particular example. I really think that it’s fine as is. Once it is explained in more detail I think it is much easier to understand. I think it’s something I could acutally make good use of now.

@Zynewave wrote:

I’ve been browsing through documentation for Cubase, Logic and others, and I have not found info on whether insert plugins on a channel strip are processed pre or post fader. Does anyone know more about this?

Pre fader for inserts defintely.

Some essential additions for the Chain Miniature…

Having really spent a good deal of time with this I can share why I got confused or perhaps simply state what sort of banana skins can be avoided for new and existing users.

a. The GP really sells the “sizzle” (heh) of the Chain Miniature. When I have the GP open it’s very easy to see what the chain Miniature is doing. It might be a good idea to have the GP open automatically if one is using the Chain Miniature or CM. It may not please everyone though so a set and forget “show Inspector if Chain is activated” option might be a good idea. This brings me to my next point…

b. The running update in the mixer side steps the need for the GP when the Chain Miniature is active. It is *very* likely the GP will be hidden by a user but the CM will still be active and visible. I personally struggle with the CM this way and would need something to let me see what is going on but not lose screen real estate by using the GP in this case. A simple update that shows me…”where” the Fader and Meter are at any point in the chain will really help to sell the idea and make it far more accessible.

Fader – Guitar
Meter – Guitar

= full row of blocks representing full control of that track.

And

Fader – Drums
Meter – Guitar

= blocks in different postions on the Chain miniature.

Actually this information could be visible in the Mixer header.

So it would look like this…

Mixer: Current Fader – Drums . Current Meter – Guitar.

This will update as one moves the Fader or Meter within the chain and is completely out of the way providing a very subtle but highly accurate and useful amount of information. Even when the mixer is hidden you could still see that info in the mixer header. It could also update when a user selects any tracks in the GP or Arrangement at track level.

c. The Pop up grid will help here Frits, as really there is not much space to hit at the moment. It would be a pity if accessibilty spoils the show for the Chain miniature.

d. UI update for GP with the inclusion of the Green outlines for selected devices and yellow for bypassed devices. I really like this idea for the mixer you implemented, but for consistency it should be extended to the GP IMO.

e. Pan slider is not accurate enough. One cannot center it by dragging for instance. It should “lock” gently when in the center position.

f. Please consider changing the double click behaviour for Pan sliders and faders. Currently this brings up the Tracks properties. I know ctrl clicking will return faders and sliders to default values but it can be a real irritation to be met with the Track properties menu again and again just because you click once to many times by accident…it’s just far too easy to click twice and then the track properties pop up. Can be very irritating. Sorry.

g. The track panel in the mixer could probably benefit from a large meter now. While it does show events on a track you could certainly IMO reduce the horizontal space for the text to allow enough vertical room for a large mixer strip…or maybe create another panel for a large mixer strip with a larger chain Miniature to the left of it that could be visible in this panel as well, that could be pretty incredible LOL! A chain Panel added to the GP.

Mini chain guide…

An FAQ or mini guide about the Chain Miniature would certainly help…feel free to correct anything here it may help people understand it and as a result test it more effectively and make use of it which would result perhaps more ideas as to how it can be improved, if need be.

1. Moving the single Fader and Meter when the chain is active to any part of a chain of tracks will adjust the fader and meter for that track. Or adjust the fader for one track but show the meter for another track.

2. It is advised to use the chain miniature with the GP open. Both are linked and work together extremely well. The GP allows a user to see where the fader position is at any point in a track chain.

3. Switching the chain off and on during mixing may cause confusion although if the GP is open it should mitigate that.

4. To make the best use of the single Fader + Meter that the chain miniature offers it is advised to perhaps use it to adjust Post FX chain fader levels and to see Post FX chain Meter readings. This will be visible in the Chain miniature as a full row of blocks at the top of a chain. Any top most FX track in a chain will however still appear under any sends being fed by that track (sends appear as an outline of blocks) in a Chain miniature.

5. While the Chain Miniature is visible, if you want to have control of more than one fader that is independent (not linked) to others in a chain make sure the bottom row of blocks in the track you want to control (unhide the track if it’s not fully visible in the mixer) has a full row. two full blocks left to right. This will remove any links to any other faders that are active in a chain, allowing for the individual fader adjustment of a track at any point in a chain.

Does this mini chain guide makes sense Frits?

@Zynewave wrote:

Beta3 is now available.

Besides the features already discussed, there are some new nice things in this beta:

• Added “automatic solo” track option. Tracks that have this option enabled will be soloed automatically when solo is activated on other tracks. The mode can be toggled by Shift+Alt+Clicking solo buttons or by pressing Shift+Alt+S. When creating a new arrangement the bus return group track will be set to automatic solo mode.

• Added “Solo”, “Automatic Solo”, “Mute”, “Record” and “Bounce” options to the properties submenu of the track context menu.

The “automatic solo” mode is what is otherwise known as “Solo Defeat” in Cubase and “Solo Safe” in Logic. When soloing a track, it is now no longer necessary to also solo the bus return section if you want to listen to the soloed track with bus send processing.

Please note that this beta still does not save the new options to the project file.

Cheers Frits.

I have to say though if was a Cubase or Logic user I would have a better idea as to how to use these features but please explain in more detail…

…would these solo options allow me to automatically solo a corresponding midi mapping for a Stylus audio output track? If so how would I use these features to do it?

Or putting it another way would it solve the first problem listed in the A case for a reduction thread?

Thanks.

Just had a thought…

If you just cannot do away with the mixer grid idea (maybe it can still work) …please do consider allowing the following at least, as this may be the best way forward…

a. Mixer Grid as an Advanced Mixer option. It is most certainly much more advanced than the Simple Pre Post idea.

b. Mixer Grid is not visible by default. But an “Advanced” button could be added just below the Latency button on the left side of the mixer in your screenshot. That would activate it.

c. The Post button idea I suggested added as a “Simple” option. Again as a button on the mixer that is visible on the left side. If you think that will be too many buttons then you could add Advanced and Simple options…(your Grid and my Post idea) to the Mixer Regions menu so that it is out of the way or in the Preferences options e.t.c

d. Instead of the Mixer Grids current size (too small IMO) you could allow a user to click on the Grid and a bigger Grid pops out that allows a user a far more realisitic hit point. Not much bigger but a third or more in size. This would probably be ideal for a mixer region option. A small bar at the top can be clicked when this is visible to allow a user to remove it from view until the Grid is clicked again. “Hide” could be visible on this small strip on the pop up Grid.

I am really trying to help here Frits (you cannot possbly think of everything) I think both ideas ( your Grid and my Post suggestion) can co exist and actually really raise the levels of accessibility, ease of use, advanced flexibility and functionality for the mixer in one single update. But the decision is yours. Hopefully these suggestions can make things easier for you one way or another.

HTH.

@Zynewave wrote:

They are not related. The “RMS window” is the time period over which the RMS values are calculated. Longer periods will result in a slower responding RMS meter with less peaks. By definition a “peak meter” shows the true meter value.

Sorry, I was not referring to the relationship between the two but a simple option to adjust Peak rise and fall response times which Sonar has for instance.

I’m puzzled why you all misunderstand this. Perhaps I haven’t described it properly in the above quote. Clicking the fader miniature MOVES the gain/pan controls to a different position in the chain. It does not select between separate settings on each effect track. Moving the controls works for setting up pre/post fader effects and bus sends, which is how other hosts/hardware mixers implement pre/post faders. You can see how this function if you look at the group panel in the track inspector when you click the miniature fader. If you had separate gain/pan controls on each effect track, you would have a huge number of controls that were not visible in the mixer. It would be a total nightmare to try to manage that during mixing.

I think I do understand but do not want to lose control of individual track faders in a chain as was possible before the current mixer Grid. For me that is all I am trying to maintain control of.

Currently we appear to have lost control of individual tracks faders. One move of the fader now and all tracks faders move accordingly. Fine if you only want to control one fader for any number of tracks in a chain.

That optional behaviour can stay but lets also have a way to disable it or keep it but return to also having full control of each tracks fader in a track chain as is the case with 2.03.

Or…even better lets go back to the Post button idea and if a user clicks on the Post button the mixer strip immediately changes to the last track fader and meter settings in the chain (Post FX) and crucially auto hides any tracks in between. Click on the Post button again and Podium switches the strip to show the Fader and meter settings for the first track in the chain.

Unless I am missing something it really should be that easy.

It appears all this time you were thinking of one fader to control all tracks in a chain (as is the case in 2.04) but what I meant and maybe others have been trying to say, is to maintain individual control of any fader in a chain or keep faders independent of each other and have Pre post options.

It’s as if we have to now trade control of each fader in a chain (separately) just to have pre post features. No need for that with the Post idea I suggested which you seemed quite happy with.

We were on the same page with the Post button idea…maybe we should keep that for simplicity as it would not result in the loss of independent control of faders. Each track’s faders would remain accessible and separate as we have in 2.03.

In 2.04 we appear to have a single fader for every and any track in a chain. A step backwards as far as flexibility is concerned IMO. It’s much less flexible than the Post button idea I suggested.

This is my exact quote from page one which you were happy with at the time.

@Conquistador wrote:

So a separate Pre Post button for Metering (simple one really as it gives you Pre / Post Effect Chain readings) and a separate Fader Pre Post button that would switch the fader controls in a Mixer strip to Pre FX chain or Post FX chain. So these buttons for Meter (Pre Post) and another for Fader (Pre Post) would essentially be simplified versions of your Fader and Meter right click commands.

But if you (Frits) or anyone else can suggest something different we can use to move forward then please do so. 🙂

Nice move Frits.

Heh… I’m not a guitar player but my son is. He has been having guitar lessons for the last year or more about twice a week.

It is a very good way to kick back and relax. I really like hearing my son play. At some point I would like to learn how to play the guitar as well…but not just yet 😉

@Zynewave wrote:

Peak hold values under the meters.

Sorry I forgot to ask Frits…could you also possibly allow the values under the meters to also show RMS values?

Maybe a right click on the value box could bring up a small Peak & RMS menu. A simple click on either Peak or RMS commands could switch the value reading under the meters.

Even if a user ‘forgot’ which metering value type (Peak or RMS) was active at the bottom of the mixer strip, the existing vertical meters in 2.04 (Peak or RMS) would provide an easy quick visual reminder as one of those vertical meters would of course mirror the visible value in the box, below the vertical meters.

@Zynewave wrote:

Tell me if I’m taking this too far

:frustrated: I am not sure how to say this but this time I think… 🙄 🙄 🙄 …

It’s absolutely great! 😛

The idea is so good I can see it being extended to other areas of Podium. But I don’t want 2.04 released in the year 2040 so I will leave those ideas until after 2.04 is released. LOL!

There is a miniature chain image at the bottom right of each strip. Each row in the miniature represents an effect track. The first column of blocks represents fader position, and the second column meter position.

A truly radically clever idea and software interpretation of the hardware mixer Pre / Post Paradigm. Super.

A fully drawn block indicates that this is the track that the fader/meter is assigned to. The middle selected track in the screenshot shows that the fader is pre-effects, and the meter is post-effects.

Great!

Some suggestions though…

The miniature could be clicked using shift/alt/control key combinations to quickly set pre/post of fader and meter.

1.I really see no need for key commands here. I would simply click on the Pre Post Mixer Grid. I would not even think about simply clicking on it.

This is not a feature IMO (and judging by the massively positive response) that will be used very rarely or here and there. I personally would use this heavily. I just want to click and go. That’s it. I would not want to have to negotiate or tangle with “shift/alt/control key combinations” just to click a block in the PPMG (Pre Post Mixer Grid)

Right-clicking the minature will open only the fader menu, and shift-right-clicking will open only the meter menu.

2.Why use shift-clicking here? A user should be able to access both menus (Fader or Meter) the same way. As per your original right click idea for these commands. Your first image in this thread illustrates my point perfectly. That idea is absolutely fine IMO, you got it right the first time (Fader and Meter commands accessible by right clicking, with no shift click). Why complicate it by adding another step that is not needed with a shift-right-click combo to access the Meter Menu?

A right click on the MG should IMO bring up the Meter *and* Fader Menus.

3. The MG (Mixer Grid) idea is just pure class….but placing my mouse cursor over your MG image (right in the box) made me think this would be a somewhat needlessly small hit point for a cursor to hit considering there is more space to use horizontally on a Mixer strip. Just a slight widening of the MG (there is space) would create a little bit more space to click in.

Lets not forget how powerful the MG is. Moving faders (Gain / Pan) settings and Meters around so easily needs an equally easy way or easierway to avoid clicking the wrong Fader or Meter in the MG box.

Just a slight widening of the MG is all I think is needed.

So instead of this…

…this (below) would provide a slighty bigger hit point for a mouse cursor reducing the possibility of clicking the wrong block (Meter / Fader) in the MG.

Podiums MG incredibly builds on the Hierarchy idea and provides a superb way to tap into the power of it. Pure Class.

With so much power and flexibiltiy on offer, at times over the years it seemed Podiums strength was at times it’s weakness. It was never the power or flexibility there, but how to present that in an easy way for users to tap into it and ‘get’ Podium.

You have totally cracked it Frits. Brilliant. With more marketing, videos and documentation added over time to really explain all these great features in more detail, I think Podium will have a very bright future. 🙂