@Zynewave wrote:
The “Meter” menu sets the track that is shown on the meter. The “Fader” menu sets the track that is gain/pan controlled. So the gain/pan and meter may be set to different tracks. Is this too much flexibility?
Hmmmm now that you have brought it up that way…it really might be too much for now. 😐 I don’t know why a user would need to see a track but not want to control the track Panning and Gain. It seems strange to almost downgrade an option but I just cannot see why a separate mixer strip / track command would be needed for Pan and Gain.
Can you think of a scenario for that? Maybe you could leave it as an advanced Mixer Region option but frankly unless someone posts here with a reason to keep Pan, Gain and Meter commands separate in this case, then yes surprsingly it looks like too much flexibility. Certainly for now. If anyone does not agree please let Frits know. Thanks.
It can’t be done. I was just considering that it would be overkill to view multiple meters simultaneously at different positions in an effect chain, and that the new shortcut for selecting a meter track would be sufficient. But I’ll let the hide option stay for now.
Overkill? I don’t think so. Some plugs do not have input or output meters so I have made good use of having multiple meters for FX tracks in the mixer. I think it is an excellent and unique feature in Podium. I really do not want to lose that!
In your post you mention a pre/post button sometimes in relation to faders and sometimes for meters, so please tell me: What should this pre/post switch button control? Is it the fader, the meter, or both? Or should there be separate buttons for fader pre/post and meter pre/post?
Sorry about the Fader / Meter references mixup…heh ok…. 🙂
If you now decide to keep the Meter, Gain and Pan right click controls under one command instead of the initial separate Fader command for Gain and Pan (even though it would be superbly flexible) then I would say one Pre/ Post Meter switch is enough.
So only one Pre / Post switch that will toggle the Meter to show the Pre FX chain Meter reading and the Post FX chain Meter reading.
So I guess this means the Fader command for Gain and Pan, will now be absorbed into the Meter commands for simplicity?
Also will the Meter command/s still be able to show any track Meter in a chain?
All this talk about Meters reminded me about something else discussed sometime ago. I think now is likely a good time to bring it up…now that your development hand is hovering over Podiums meters in the mixer 🙂
Samplitude screenshot…
The Peakmeter is really one of many types of readings or meter types. It’s interesting to see Podium already (as of 2.04) has K- Metering. This large Horizontal peak meter can be dragged all the way up the screen vertically or horzontally to make it smaller or the full length of the screen.
In jpleongs thread you said something about a “new region that you could insert in the arrangement editor profile.”
Hi Frits,
Thanks for the Preview. 🙂
Peak Meters:
The Peak readings are not tiny and are easy to read. Thanks!
In the image you have peak readings for the Master out -2.09 and -2.21 is that a left / right Peak reading (looks like it) or is the reading on the left for the K meter?
RMS and K – Metering:
What about K-20 and K-12? Bob Katz suggests K-20, K-14 and and K-12 all have their uses with each serving a specific purpose…
“If making an audiophile recording, then use K-20, if making “typical” pop or rock music, or audio for video, then probably choose K-14. K-12 should be reserved strictly for audio to be dedicated to broadcast; broadcast recording engineers may certainly choose K-14 if they feel it fits their program material. Pop engineers are encouraged to use K-20 when the music has useful dynamic range.”
Taken from this “level Practices article” on Bob Katz site.
Fader and Meter submenus in the track menu. These allow for quickly moving gain/pan and meter settings between tracks in the chain.
What commands are on the Fader Menu?
The mixer strip has previously always shown the fader and meter for the track represented by the strip. With the new changes the strip now shows the fader and meter of the first track upwards in the chain that has the fader and meter options enabled. That’s similar to how the faders on the track lane headers work.
Not sure what you mean here…
Typical chain
^ EQ
^ Compressor
^ Instrument
Are you saying the default Mixer view will now show the EQ (in this example) and not the instrument strip in the mixer?
I think as things stand now by default the mixer will show the Instrument track and one would need to unhide the EQ and compressor track to see them. Are you trying to give a user a view of the last FX track in a chain instead by default?
As a consequence of these improvements, I’m considering removing the “Hide mixer strip” option, in an attempt to simplify things and making the track menu less crowded. The strip show/hide toggle option was implemented mainly to be able to show gain/pan controls if they were enabled on an effect track (pre-fader effects). This is now no longer needed with the new fader/meter behaviour.
I guess I would have to see this in action to really see how it works in the mixer but I quite like the option to hide tracks in the mixer as it is (at least optionally) but until 2.04 is out I can’t really pass an accurate comment on it. 🙂
Also how will a user be able to tell what track is Pre or Post in Podium? It would be far too much to expect any user to ‘remember’ his track settings for every track especially in Podium as tracks are extremely flexible. 😐
Is this (below) possibly under consideration..?(I don’t know any easier way to let a user keep track of Pre / Post track settings visually)..from ronins post FX thread
…or did you have something else in mind?
Cheers.
@Zynewave wrote:
I’m familiar with the purpose of input trim controls on hardware mixer consoles. I did not realize that you were referring to trim as input gain, as that is not the purpose of the trim control on the FreeG plugin that you often refer to.
Tee Hee 🙂 I agree it is not the best example to illustrate my poiint. Hitting the Free G Pre button will show you the input signal without the Trim and Fader changes taken into account (even if they have been adjusted) so the Trim in Free G by default is indeed Post not Pre. Even though Sonalksis themselves do refer to it as an “input control” in their Free G PDF, which it still is but not in the way I was describing in other hosts. It is a type of Post Trim control.
The main reason however for using Free G as an example was more so as an optional mixer strip layout not because of a current lack of functionality in that area as I pointed out earlier. The Trim idea was more to do with layout than function, hence the the visible Trim addition to the mixer strip in the mock up image.
I think Sonar’s set up would have been one of the better examples to illustrate my point in hindsight. Sorry.
The hosts you list above are more or less designed to mimic hardware mixers, so I can understand why they implement trim controls. But hardware-emulation is as you know not the focus for Podium.
Correct yes. And perhaps in this case it is best left that way. An optional layout would have been nice but Podium thankfully does not have a fixed track set up or type (a huge advantage) as tracks can be pretty much anything you want them to be at any part of the chain. So perhaps in this case it really is better left as is frankly. 8)
I probably misunderstood you. I thought you suggested adding another “Trim gain” setting to the track properties, which would be a bad idea. Your scenario could be constructed as follows: An audio track with the input assigned and gain enabled, which would be the “Trim” gain. On the last effect track in the effect chain the gain would also be enabled, which then would be the output fader. You can choose to show the mixer strip for both the input track and the last effect track, and then you have your two gain controls, with the added bonus of having meters for both the input as controlled by the trim gain, and the final track output.
Ha! I thought you would suggest this as it is exactly the approach I use already LOL!
It is highly flexible but again the Trim idea was for a layout option more than anything else as I stated earlier the functionality is already in Podium. But I agree with your sentiment about Podium’s focus not being hardware emulation.
While emulating some aspects of hardware is great in software, and sometimes cannot be avoided (a mixer in most cases) I do know for instance that Logic (older versions) make use of a Gainer plugin that would provide the same functionality as a track in Podium with a gain dial providing input or output adjustment. But because Podium uses tracks, (that can change function anywhere in a chain) and not a gain plugin, Podium IMO offers a far more powerful and flexible approach.
Btw. You’ll be happy to learn that today I implemented:
• Meters in the mixer now show peak hold values. This can be enabled with the “show peak hold values” option in the mixer region properties dialog. Clicking the peak hold value box will reset the value. Double-clicking any peak hold value box will reset the value for all mixer strips.
Yes, I am *very happy* to learn of this new implementation! 😀 Thanks! 
I like the fact that you also added a full reset for all track Peak values by double clicking any Peak Hold Value box. Extremely useful in a project with high track counts and a clever way to reduce clicking in Podium.
Now that you are working in this area I have to ask…
Would you also consider RMS metering? Maybe right clicking the Peak output to switch or an additional option in the Mixer region properties?
You also mentioned K- metering as something you had been meaning to look into some time ago, on this thread. Even if it was just added to the Master track as an option it would be very useful.
Hi ronin,
@ronin wrote:
Indeed, this sounds like a good solution! thanks for your reply. I’ve searched the forum for this topic but I came up with nothing. maybe I’ve searched the wrong terms 🙂
Yes something along the lines of your request has been discussed in an older thread hereand a more recent thread here.
how a about a small button/indicator named AFX(after-FX)/PFX(pre-fx) on the left upper corner of the mixer-track lane…but maybe in this case the panner should be moved “into” the fader part of the lane (so its not separated with a line)
A Pre / Post button of sorts is a good idea, I have put together a mock up for Frits and everyone else to see below…
@ Frits…
The lack of an easy pre/post-fader setup have been brought up quite a few times now, so I think I’ll make this my next development task.
Thanks!
As you have found out with the per-track options for gain/pan, tracks can be set up to support not only pre/post faders but also inbetween and multiple faders at different points in the effect chain on a track. What’s missing are simple commands for switching between pre or post fader, as this is probably the only two configurations that most users ever need.
I could add a “Default fader mode” option to the arrangement properties dialog (below the mono panning setting). The choices for this mode will be “Pre effect chain” and “Post effect chain”. When new tracks are created and the first effect is inserted in the chain, then this default mode will determine whether the gain/pan should stay on the lane track (pre) or move up above the inserted effect (post). For tracks that have an effect chain, the properties submenu in the track menu will have either “Move fader pre chain” and “Move fader post chain” commands, so that you quickly can swap the fader mode for each individual track.
Does that sound like a good solution?
How the mixer should display the pre/post logic is another issue.
That sounds like a good idea but…I would say that each track must have a pre post fader button/s. That way a user can easily see if a particular track is pre or post fader…especially if a user has tracks in an arrangement that use different fader options for different tracks in a chain.
I certainly would *not* want to have to remember where each fader is set to control / display in a chain. A simple button for Pre and Post on each track should solve that issue. See image.
Additional points about the mock up…
I also added a Trim button and showed how that might fit into the mixer strip as well. A button for phase is also there. I really think if you are looking at adding Pre post options I do think it would be a great idea to also add a realtime db value to mixer strips, as indicated in the image the 12.5 db value is not the same as the 18.5db fader value.
This is deliberate to highlight a problem Podium has with not being able to show you exactly what the actual reading of tracks output is at any time with a db value. The meters are for a very simple glance but there is no way one can be expected to use the db values on the strips as guides, as they are still not clear enough and quite small (tiny even) in relation to text elsewhere.
The 12.5 db value in the image (above) represents what would be the true and constantly updated value for that track.
You could also add additional options for the Trim function in Podium (Trim range for instance) as you can see here…
To see the screen above just click on the Sonalksis Logo…on the front panel (below)…it will turn white when touched, simply click it to see the various options it offers on the back panel.
